Discussion: Should the Local Property Tax be a tax on occupiers, not owners?

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ajapale

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I disagree, I think it should remain as property tax levied on owners of properties not already paying rates.

I would not like it to move to a "poll tax".
 
ajapale said:
I disagree, I think it should remain as property tax levied on owners of properties not already paying rates.
I would not like it to move to a "poll tax".
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AFAIK the Legislation prohibits landlords from passing it on to tenants. Tenants also have the benefit of fixed rent charges (established by a lease) so how does one restore the equilibrium of the relationship between tenant and owner? Make the tenant liable for the cost of providing the services provided by local authority, and availed of by them. That is fair. Having it that the owner pays is unfair. In my book unfairness in Irish society has always led to trouble down the line.
 
Luternau said:
Having it that the owner pays is unfair.
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But surely the definition of a property tax is that it is levied on property owners? (a "poll tax" is levied on individuals and a uk style "council tax" that is levied on occupiers").

I think, in general, that tenants have been at a disadvantage vis landlords for generations and that a solid property tax levied on property owners might go some way to redressing that.

Having said that I think water charges should be levied on water consumers and the bin charges should be levied on waste producer.
 
Its a property precursor tax levied on properties (non exempt households). The property owner is liable.
 
Its not about fair it's about who is easier to collect it from , this will probably change in the future where we will have a new property tax and we ll keep the household charge and broadcasting charge
 
ajapale said:
I think, in general, that tenants have been at a disadvantage vis landlords for generations and that a solid property tax levied on property owners might go some way to redressing that.
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Thanks for creating a separate thread for this.

As someone that offers good accomadation that is well equipped, professionally managed, let at Market rent or slightly below them, I wonder about the term 'disadvantage' vis a vis tenant versus landlord and redressing the balance. Most of the imbalance has already been addressed through PRTB and other legislation re fire safety etc.

I believe owning property today is nowhere near as advantageous as being a tenant. All the new charges are aimed at owners not tenants. Eitherway, a society where the user pays is nothing radical.

However in Ireland Govt know that a lease offers no barrier to mobilty to tenants ( the cost of enforcing a lease is totally disproportionate to the value of the lease so owners just re-let and move on.) So Govt know it's easier to levy the owner as they are totally locked in through their legal ownership.

Easy yes, fair no. Ireland has still a lot to learn in how it raises and collects taxes (or charges). Please for once, could they introduce/implement/levy what they describe as a 'progressive' measure in a logical, reasonable and sustainable way.
 
mcloving said:
That would be far to complicated for an irish government to organise.

Lets keep it simple, one charge for the person/persons living in the property.
They are using the council services after all.
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People have a habit of moving: property tends to stay put.

I understand that one of the main reasons bringing in taxation of property is precisely that it is difficult to hide or move: once established, it is (in theory) a steady income stream.
 
truthseeker said:
But its not a property tax - its a Household Charge.
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It's a household charge which is a forerunner to a property tax. As you have suggested in your post they are two different things. That is why IMO so many people have not paid - is because they do not know the criteria on which the proprty tax in 2013 will be based on.
 
Luternau said:
However in Ireland Govt know that a lease offers no barrier to mobilty to tenants ( the cost of enforcing a lease is totally disproportionate to the value of the lease so owners just re-let and move on.) So Govt know it's easier to levy the owner as they are totally locked in through their legal ownership.
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+1. In reality, in Ireland, the lease only applies to the landlord. Tenants come and go regardless of the length of time they sign up to.
 
I hear Gerry Adams says he’s proud of all the people who haven’t paid the Household Charge. Will he be paying for his house in Donegal and who’s liable for all the safe houses his lads have around the country? Do they own them or just occupy them? ;)
 
SF have not advised people not to pay as they will not be paying the fines.
I would expect that he has paid all taxes and any TD not paying should be kicked out of the Dail immediately.

Gerry needs to retire asap............SF are happy to be in a Gov in the North that collects similar taxes so confusion reigns in SF.
 
In many other European countries there are two taxes levied
- one on the owner
- one on the occupier, who may or may not be the same person(s)

The first is obviously a sort of wealth tax, based on property value and the second is a charge based on utilisation of local services.

Remember also, that utilities such as energy, water and waste are also levied separately.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Budget Positives
Property tax is fair enough overall, although it should be on the occupier not the owner.
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But if it was a tax on occupiers then it would not be a property tax but rather some kind of poll tax (particularly since it is to be levied via payroll).

I think Local Authorities and Housing Associations as major property owners should not be exempt from the property tax.
 
I might be wrong, but I heard that the property tax in France is evenly split between the owner and the occupier.
 
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