DINKs with too much cash

noelÓm

Registered User
Messages
110
Personal details
Age: Early 30s
Spouse’s/Partner's age: Late 20s
Number and age of children: 0 (and agreed plan is to have none)

Income and expenditure
Annual gross income from employment or profession: €68,500
Annual gross income of spouse: €47,500
Monthly take-home pay: €6,500
Type of employment: Civil Servant x2
In general, we are saving.

Summary of Assets and Liabilities
Family home worth €440k with a €300k mortgage
Cash €22k

Family home mortgage information
Ulster Bank (soon to transfer to PTSB)
2.2% (BER is a D1 or D2)
Fixed until 2027
We are able to overpay by 10% of Jan 1st balance in each calendar year without penalty, though any more may attract a break fee. It is unclear how PTSB will deal with the issue of overpayment.

Other borrowings – car loans/personal loans etc
A single credit card in my name with €0 drawn and a €5,000 limit in case of emergencies.

Buy to let properties
None.

Other savings and investments
We both have defined benefit pensions under the Single Public Sector Pension Scheme, but we have no AVC PRSAs.

Other information which might be relevant
Mortgage protection insurance.
Spousal death benefit under the Single Public Sector Pension Scheme x2.
My spouse has life assurance and income protection, arranged through work. No idea on the details.
We have no private medical insurance.

What specific question do you have or what issues are of concern to you?
We are generating too much excess cash and have to do something with it.
We are looking for feedback on the following plan, which is set out in order of our current preference and sense of time priority. We're particularly interested in if you think we are missing anything or if you disagree with our rank ordering.

1. Take out income protection for myself, re-evaluate the terms of my spouse's income protection, and re-evaluate our life contracts. Our main asset is our ability to generate strong income for the next 30+ years, so illness or the death of one partner is a major downside risk.
2. Set up self-directed AVC PRSAs for each of us and make full use of Income Tax relief. We would track a cheap global equity index for around ten years, then re-weight by adding bonds and assess values relative to Revenue Commissioner occupational pension benefit limits as they relate to the Single Public Sector Pension Scheme. Re-weight further into bonds routinely as we age.
3. Overpay our mortgage fairly aggressively, though with an eye also on financing some home renovation in the next 2-5 years (possibly going as far as a grant-aided deep retrofit). If house prices fall 20%, we would like to still have a respectable (70-80%) LTV as we we will likely have to switch away from PTSB at some point.
4. Take out medical insurance, certainly before we each hit 35.
5. Spend more money on nice things.
6. Consider moving to a more expensive home if it would improve our lifestyle and, less importantly, to allow us to potentially release more equity later in life should we ever need it and to give us more exposure to CGT-free potential price growth. If high value Irish properties fall in price, then lower value Irish properties might do so also providing a partial hedge. We would sell our existing home if there is no tax efficient means of taking in rental income and/or the rent control environment is unchanged.
7. Consider investing further in international stocks and bonds, outside of a pension structure.
8. Consider getting Income Tax relief on through the Employment Incentive and Investment Scheme, accepting the relatively high risk exposure to small Irish companies.
 
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You are both civil servants so you have secure jobs. Rainy day fund doesn't need to be big as you won't lose you job. Build it up to the price of what you would spend on a car.

Overpay your mortgage by 10% of capital, which is all that is allowed.

Invest the remainder, through both maxing out your AVCs and investing privately.

Not planning on having kids will save you a fortune and you should be alright financially. As long as lifestyle creep doesn't become an issue where you start spending all the surplus cash and not saving it.


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie
 
We are able to overpay by 10% of Jan 1st balance in each calendar year (though it is unclear how PTSB will deal with this)

Hi Noel

A lot of people misunderstand this.

You are allowed to overpay by 10% without a penalty.

But you will probably find that if you want to overpay more, the penalty will be very low and probably zero.

You have a high mortgage in relation to your salary and the value of your home. The fact that you are civil servants means that this is less of a problem. But given that you may wish to trade up, I think that the priority should be to get the mortgage down as quickly as possible so your trading options will be there if you want to trade up.

You are young and you have a good public service pension so don't really need to make other contributions urgently.

Brendan
 
1. Take out income protection for myself, re-evaluate the terms of my spouse's income protection, and re-evaluate our life contracts. Our main asset is our ability to generate strong income for the next 30+ years, so illness or the death of one partner is a major downside risk.

No need for further life cover.
Your mortgage will be cleared if one of you dies.
The other has a good salary.
You don't have children.

I don't think you need income protection either.
The premium is way too high for healthy young people.
The Civil Service will look after you.
And if you do get some serious illness, you will probably find that it's excluded from cover.
Use the premium "saved" to pay down your mortgage.

Brendan
 
financing some home renovation in the next 2-5 years

Consider moving to a more expensive home

You need to sit down and clarify your thinking on this. And, make sure to write down your thoughts, so that you can review them afterwards.

It makes no sense to renovate in 2 years only to trade up in 5 years. You will not recover the costs of renovation in the sale price.

My guess is that you will decide to trade up.
With that in mind, you have €140k equity with €20k cash or €160k

With €110k of salary, you should be able to borrow about €400k

So that is a house of €560k which is not a big enough jump on what you have at present.

So you really do need to maximise cash at the moment. So don't contribute to an AVC and don't spend anything on renovations.

Brendan
 
...
I don't think you need income protection either.
The premium is way too high for healthy young people.
The Civil Service will look after you.
And if you do get some serious illness, you will probably find that it's excluded from cover.
Use the premium "saved" to pay down your mortgage.

Brendan
The premium is much higher on unhealthy older people too.

Like all insurance, it is catastrophe planning and probably won't happen. But what if it does? The average claim is 5 years. Can the OP survive for 5 years with one salary? Disability can take many forms so you cannot second guess what anyone would be out of work for and if they will require additional care and how much that will cost.

The Civil Service will not look after you. You get full pay for 3 months, half pay for the following 3 months and that is it. If you are deemed not able to return to work, you will be retired early. Nothing about if you are off due to stress, cancer etc and will be able to return to work eventually.

Income protection and serious illness cover are two different things. Income protection will pay out if you are unable to work due to any accident, illness or injury. It pays a percentage of salary until you return to work or reach the selected retirement age. Serious illness has a specific list of illnesses that are cover and pays out a once off lump sum. You do not have to be out of work to claim. Below are the 2021 claim stats from Aviva. To say they probably find an exclusion is clearly not true. They paid out 92% of all income protection claims last year.

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Hi Steven

Interesting figures.
Is Aviva the only company offering it?
I certainly get the impression that they often avoid paying out. But then I probably don't hear from the people who do pay out.

I would love to see an independent assessment of the claims record.

Have you any idea what the claims to premium ratio is?

I still reckon it's terrible value for healthy , honest people.

Brendan
 
Overpay your mortgage by 10% of capital, which is all that is allowed.

Invest the remainder, through both maxing out your AVCs and investing privately.
I think I may have added some confusion here. We are allowed to overpay our mortgage by more than 10% per annum, but the overpayment would potentially be subject to a break fee.

We are very happy to get long-term exposure to equity markets and the Income Tax relief on AVCs seems to make this a good option for us. However, we struggle to justify making private after-tax investments when we could be earning a certain return (interest avoided) by overpaying our mortgage. Also, a fall in house prices would quickly wipe out our home equity and interfere with our ability to switch mortgage or move house. It seems a stretch to make private investment a competitive option here. Perhaps we don't understand the options for sheltering private investment gains or dividend income from tax?
 
Hi Noel

You are right. You have no business making direct investments in equity.
Paying down your mortgage beats this every time.

The only issue is whether you should max your pension contributions now or pay down your mortgage.

I think you should pay down your mortgage for the following reasons
1) You are young so have plenty of time to catch up
2) You already have a Rolls Royce pension scheme
3) You may need the cash to trade up

Brendan
 
You are allowed to overpay by 10% without a penalty.

But you will probably find that if you want to overpay more, the penalty will be very low and probably zero.
Noted. I will edit the OP to account for this.

It makes no sense to renovate in 2 years only to trade up in 5 years. You will not recover the costs of renovation in the sale price.
Agreed. This is where we have the least clarity in our thinking. Our current home suits our needs now, but could be a little nicer. We also have no pressure to move relating to work or family, so we could stay here forever and probably be very happy. We will have to decide before committing to renovation. Either way, it will make sense to build up home equity and perhaps cash closer to the time. The idea of investing in our PPR, either through renovation or moving to a more expensive home, is still appealing from a CGT point of view and we like the comfort of knowing we could release equity late in life if needed by downsizing.

You are young and you have a good public service pension so don't really need to make other contributions urgently.
I think I'm saying the quiet part loud, but we do not anticipate having a major pension deficit at retirement and that is not our primary concern. Instead we are interested in AVCs because we want to get access to (1) generous Income Tax relief (2) high long-run expected returns (3) diversification of our assets away from housing and (4) diversification of our pension income away from the Irish state. We are acutely aware that our pension incomes depend on a pay-as-you-go model and the Contributory State Pension in place at our retirement date. The demographic politics will probably take care of us, but we'd like some control too.
 
we do not anticipate having a major pension deficit at retirement and that is not our primary concern. Instead we are interested in AVCs because we want to get access to (1) generous Income Tax relief (2) high long-run expected returns (3) diversification of our assets away from housing and (4) diversification of our pension income away from the Irish state.
What I'm reading here is saving for saving's sake.

I'm not a FIRE advocate but you seem to be the opposite here. You want to accumulate a lot of wealth but don't really have much of a plan what to do with it.

Where do you want to be in 20 years time? Early retirement? A prestige house? 2x intercontinental holidays a year?

At the moment you seem set on working until retirement and on track for 80% replacement income at retirement. This is commendable but without a clear objective or heirs I don't really see why you want to build so much wealth.
 
The Civil Service will not look after you. You get full pay for 3 months, half pay for the following 3 months and that is it. If you are deemed not able to return to work, you will be retired early. Nothing about if you are off due to stress, cancer etc and will be able to return to work eventually.

Income protection and serious illness cover are two different things. Income protection will pay out if you are unable to work due to any accident, illness or injury. It pays a percentage of salary until you return to work or reach the selected retirement age. Serious illness has a specific list of illnesses that are cover and pays out a once off lump sum. You do not have to be out of work to claim. Below are the 2021 claim stats from Aviva. To say they probably find an exclusion is clearly not true. They paid out 92% of all income protection claims last year.
Very helpful. Thanks.
 
What I'm reading here is saving for saving's sake.

I'm not a FIRE advocate but you seem to be the opposite here. You want to accumulate a lot of wealth but don't really have much of a plan what to do with it.

Where do you want to be in 20 years time? Early retirement? A prestige house? 2x intercontinental holidays a year?

At the moment you seem set on working until retirement and on track for 80% replacement income at retirement. This is commendable but without a clear objective or heirs I don't really see why you want to build so much wealth.
This is a fair point. I think it is probably a combination of (1) high and possibly irrational risk aversion about retirement financial health (2) both of us being happy in our jobs currently and income being a secondary motivation for us at work (3) not thinking carefully about the possibility of early retirement (4) we would need to spend like drunk sailors to wear out our excess cash. I'm quite sure it could be done, but it would be a step change for us.
 
Are you aware of published loss rates on these investments or insolvency rates for investee companies?
I haven't bothered looking closely at these sorts of investments for many years. But the overall picture, at least relating to Ireland, is grim. Put it this way, our Revenue authorities only allow companies avail of such schemes as means of funding when the proposed third-party investments involve inherent and significant risk.
 
Our current home suits our needs now, but could be a little nicer. We also have no pressure to move relating to work or family, so we could stay here forever and probably be very happy. We will have to decide before committing to renovation. Either way, it will make sense to build up home equity and perhaps cash closer to the time. The idea of investing in our PPR, either through renovation or moving to a more expensive home, is still appealing from a CGT point of view and we like the comfort of knowing we could release equity late in life if needed by downsizing.

What I'm reading here is saving for saving's sake.

You are well off.
You are going to have a comfortable retirement whatever you do.

I am a big advocate of taking a fully integrated approach to your overall assets including your PPR. But you seem to be overdoing it.

You are well off and will be able to afford a nicer home in a few years. So that should be your objective. If an Excel spreadsheet tells you that by staying in your present home and maxing your AVCs, on retirement you will have 10% more assets in total, so what? You will have enough for a comfortable retirement. You will have enough to retire early.

So focus on what you want - which seems to be a nicer house and go for that.

Brendan
 
Hi Steven

Interesting figures.
Is Aviva the only company offering it?
I certainly get the impression that they often avoid paying out. But then I probably don't hear from the people who do pay out.

I would love to see an independent assessment of the claims record.

Have you any idea what the claims to premium ratio is?

I still reckon it's terrible value for healthy , honest people.

Brendan
All the life companies publish their claims stats each year. I would hazard a guess that the critical illness is a lot lower because people submit claims for illness's clearly not covered from the list of covered illnesses.

No one plans on being sick Brendan. Aviva's biggest claims are:

25% psychological
25% orthopedic
20% cancer

I don't know how you can plan around stress or getting cancer. As I said before, it is just in case insurance because being without an income, especially a higher earner, can be catastrophic.


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie
 
Hi Steven

Can't plan cancer.

But most of us would not be subject to stress and would not go sick as a result.

The two OPs in this case are Civil Servants, so I would think it very unlikely.

Brendan
That is a wild assumption to make!!

A friend of mine is a civil servant and a qualified counsellor. He worked as a public service counsellor for a number of years and believe me, there are a lot of people under a lot of stress or worse in the public service. Not all of it is work related, it goes a lot deeper than that, but it exists. And stress doesn't turn itself off when you go to work.

It is also unlikely that someone in their late 20's/ early 30's will die. The most likely event that will happen to cause death at that age is an accident. You can't plan for someone crashing into you.
 
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