Did the President really say that?

[ajapale]

Did the President really say:

Some children in Northern Ireland were taught to hate Catholics in the same way Nazis despised Jews.

?

If she did then she should resign.

 

[cullenswood]

If she did then she should resign.:

Why? It's kinda true. Granted it did happen the other way around aswell

 

[EAMONN66]

MARY MC

maybe she led a sheltered life up in crossmaglen and belfast and only met tolerant people who love protestants

 

[daltonr]

Re: MARY MC

First of all she didn't say that. She was talking in general about intolerance around the world and mentioned the way protestant children are thought to hate catholics.

This *in some cases* is factually correct. Obviously there are many many many protestant parents who don't do this.

Her error was that she didn't say that her comments were also true of how *some* catholic children are raised.

SHE DID NOT COMPARE PROTESTANTS TO NAZI's. And for political and church leaders to put that interpretation on it isn't helpfull.

Ironically some will use the comments to whip up anti-Catholic, anti-Republic (or whatever) sentiment. Validating the very points they claim to be so offended by.

It's possible that as she was giving examples from around the world she had a specific Protestant tradition in mind (such as the church services following *some* of the Marches, in which the language can get quite colourful and it certainly would have an impact on a child's view of Catholics.

Of course the Newspapers aren't going to give this fair and balanced reporting. Where would be the story in that? If they can stir this up they might get a presidential resignation to write about.

I'm not particularly a fan of the President, but I do hate to see this sort of nonsense being spun to sell newpapers and whip up a political storm. It demeans us.

-Rd

 

[Madonna]

Re: Holy Mary

I have before referred to how NIRCs are wont to compare their lot with Hitler's Jews. Holy Mary has proved my point in spades.

I am going to be very fair here and list the injustices against catholics pre 1969 - I lived there you know.

Some protestant firms discrimated against catholics
Some local councils were gerrymandered in favour of protestants
Public drinking was banned on Sundays
Public gambling was banned on Sundays
The M1 motorway went west at Lisburn instead of south to Dublin*
The University of Ulster was located in Coleraine not Derry*
They called Derry Londonderry*
Forced to take holidays on the Twelfth July*
Street names were not given in Irish*
You could not get 10% extra marks for sitting public exams in Irish*
You couldn't even sit public exams in Irish*

A veritable litany of brutal oppression (and those marked with an * still haven't been addressed).

But I do hope that those who have seen recent TV coverage of the Nazi death camps will agree that in the scheme of things the NIRCs' grievances don't even register on the Richter scale.

 

[Asimov]

Re: Holy Mary

I am going to be very fair here [I doubt it] and list the injustices against catholics pre 1969 - I lived there you know.

So too did Johnny Adair! So did I. So what?

Some protestant firms discrimated against catholics

Fact: All high paid working class jobs were barred to Catholics.

Some local councils were gerrymandered in favour of protestants

Fact: Destitute Catholic families were deprived of housing while single Protestants were given private accomodation.

Public drinking was banned on Sundays

Translation: Taigs are all drunks, unlike the respectable Proddies.

Public gambling was banned on Sundays

Translation: Taigs are all gambling addicts and wasters.

The M1 motorway went west at Lisburn instead of south to Dublin*

Irrelevance...few working class catholics owned cars.

The University of Ulster was located in Coleraine not Derry*

Irrelevance....few working class catholics went to university (excepting of course that legendary and alleged NIRC - Madonna).

They called Derry Londonderry*

Translation: No Surrender!

Forced to take holidays on the Twelfth July*

Translation: Forced to hide in their homes (if they had one) while protestant mobs exercised their 'cultural right' to shut the country down for the day and swagger through the streets of catholic neighbourhoods in their annual territorial pissing parade.

Street names were not given in Irish* You could not get 10% extra marks for sitting public exams in Irish* You couldn't even sit public exams in Irish*

Never bothered me much...I don't speak it. But I've got O Levels in French, Latin, Spanish and Ancient Greek.

A veritable litany of brutal oppression (and those marked with an * still haven't been addressed).

Some have...the Orange Order can't walk all over the minority community with impunity any more. Mark that one up to the Taigs. I expect you must miss the chance to wave the flag as the wee "Kick The Pope Band" from the Lower Shankill thunders by your front door.

But I do hope that those who have seen recent TV coverage of the Nazi death camps will agree that in the scheme of things the NIRCs' grievances don't even register on the Richter scale.

On the Richter scale? I thought that had to do with earthquakes and Tsunamis? What scale do you mean?

I have before referred to how NIRCs are wont to compare their lot with Hitler's Jews. Holy Mary has proved my point in spades.

Didn't you say you are a NIRC? You sure harp on a lot about how good they had it and how unreasonable they are. Whats your motivation?...you seem to be on a one man crusade against your own community! Why is that so important to you?
Methinks there's more to you than you profess.

 

[daltonr]

Enough Already.

This is exactly the point I was making. Here we have two people arguing about how badly the Catholics were treated (or otherwise) and whether it compares with the victims of the NAZI's.

For the last time...
She DIDN'T compare Catholics to the prisioners in Concentration Camps. She didn't compare Protestants to Nazis.

She didn't even make ANY comment about the way catholics were "treated" in the North.

She simply pointed out that in the North along with many other parts of the world we haven't learned enough of a lesson from the Holocaust and we continue to teach intolerance, biggotry, racism, etc, etc to our kids.

Yes, she made a mistake to single out one community in the north, because both sides do it. But she didn't but the treatment of either side in the same bracket as those who were killed before and during WW2.

For the sake of a bit of peace and quiet can people put aside petty arguments about who was more mistreated as a child and just accept that Bigotry, Hatred, Intolerance etc are still being handed on as lessons to our kids.

And that's what we should be discussing rather than contributing to the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language stirring around this comment.
Which if looked at in context is not actually incorrect.

Honest to god i'm getting a little sick of how easily people get offended.

Sinn Fein get offended if you suggest that the IRA membership includes criminals, or if you suggest that killing people is a Crime. Apparently being called a criminal is more offensive than being shot in the head.

Gerry Adams gets offended if you suggest he is or was a member of the IRA.

Protestants get offended if you suggest that some protestants are intolerant of catholics and pass that intolerance on to their kids.

All of these things are true. Yet if you dare to say any of them on publis you bring down the world on your shoulders.

Some journalist without any reference to how people actually feel starts his column with the words "There was outrage today..." and people believe that he actually speaks for us.

Can we all catch ourselves on. We have enough problems in this country without getting offended everytime someone says something that we actually know is true, but won't admit to in public.

-Rd

 

[brainlessareus]

Just my 2cents.

Here is what she said:

"They [the Nazis] gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred, for example, of Catholics."

Now I'm sorry but reading that she actualy did compare Nazis with Protestants. This however only in the way that these groups

transmitted to their children an irrational hatred

but no sweettalking helps there, she did a comparison.

Now that is no way near what people make out of (i.e. saying she compared Holocaust to the catolic victims in Northern Ireland) but I think that someone in her position should be more carefull when she talks about subjects like this.

I don't actualy think that she wanted to compare the action of Hilter's Nazi to Protestant in Northern Ireland.

I think she should clarify her point and she should do that fast.

I always wonder, why people immedialty start shouting once any statement involves "Nazi's". Sure, it was next to Stalin's Communists one of the worst chapters in european history but, isn't it time that we start learning from / and debate history?

Just my 2cents.

 

[Madonna]

Re: If only...

What a blunder though! If only she had said it the other way round. But she doesn't really believe it the other way round, she honestly believes that Prods are more biggoted than Taigs and she is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT on that, but the comparison with Nazis was a big EOJ.

 

[Madonna]

Re: FLAGS

French, Latin, Ancient Greek, Spanish. Asi, as a man with FLAGS you are remarkably unable to see beyond the indoctrination which we all got up there. BTW, I regret that there is nothing more to me than I profess.

 

[Ocras]

Re: FLAGS

Let's be fair here.......listen to the interview; "for example" is the critical part of the sentence and she did pause, before completing the sentence. The spoken word and written word are quite different.

She was citing an example of bigotry and inbred hatred to which we could all relate to, irrelevant of the extremes of the comparison to the Nazis.

On another more softer note, noticed a cleaning company van, with the logo/name "Tribal Cleaning" in Galway.............

 

[Rabbit]

Re: FLAGS

Mrs McAleese did not say SOME protestants in N. Ireland, she said protestants in N. Ireland. She has tarred an entire community with one brush. Image the outcry there would be if the Queen of the UK said that the Nazi attitude to Jews was the same as the way Irish catholics teach their children a hatred of protestants.

Having gone through the Irish education system, and having been stuffed with one sided info about the famine, the "heros" of 1916, the 800 years of injustice , the coffin ships etc it is no wonder that there are attitudes around which result in many protestants have felt descriminated against in the 26 counties. The decline in the protestant population since partition, the ne temure decree, the Fethard on sea incident, the treatmeant / expulsion of the Jews from Limerick in the 1920s etc etc have all left their mark on minorities.

I think McAleese should resign if she has any honour. Her secterian remarks do not do the country justice. This country has a tarnised enough reputation already regarding the IRA links with Nazism in the form of a momunent to Sean Russell in a public place in Dublin. This IRA man died on a U-boat and was a Nazi collaborator. What other country in Europe would allow a statue like that to be erected - none.

McAleeses comments were not only an insult to the protestant community, but also to the Jewish community, (whose suffering / loss in WW2 was such that some people in Ireland do not even comprehend), and to those brave Irish men and women who helped liberate Europe from Nazism.

 

[Repaymentator]

Re: FLAGS

She shouldn't resign. She's done a lot of bridge building to the Protestants. e.g. I remember a lot of fuss about her taking communion in the CofI a while back.

Her failure to give an instinctive balancing remark about some Catholics being guilty of the same thing does demonstrate that she still sees the northern situation from a fundamentally Irish Catholic viewpoint. But I'd forgive her for that because her apology does seem sincere.

 

[Asimov]

Re: FLAGS

I listened to 'The Last Word' this evening. Matt Cooper interviewed 'Reverend' Billy McCrea, the singing bigot from South Antrim.
After the interview Cooper reported an 'overwhelming' response to the piece, and said that of the hundreds of comments received - over 90% supported Mary McAleese.

This just goes to further prove my point, that in spite of the vocal indignation of a loud-mouthed cadre like Madonna and his sidekick Rabbit - the majority of people in this country aren't fooled by DUP bluster.

I'm no great supporter of McAleese, but I know Loyalist gamesmanship when I see it.
The DUP have demanded an apology from McAleese. I hope she doesn't give one...to witness both the Taoiseach and the President grovelling to Paisley in the space of a few weeks would make me want to emigrate.

 

[Madonna]

Re: Scale of atrocity

On the Richter scale? I thought that had to do with earthquakes and Tsunamis? What scale do you mean?

I suppose I mean the Madonna scale:

Holocaust 10
Stalin purges 4
Bosnian ethnic cleansing 3
Rwanda genocide 2.5
Cambodia 2.0
Norn Iron .000000000001


I was simply saying that there are no atrocity measuring instruments yet developed that can register the grievance of NIRCs

 

[Rabbit]

Re: Scale of atrocity

Asimov claimedAfter the interview Cooper reported an 'overwhelming' response to the piece, and said that of the hundreds of comments received - over 90% supported Mary McAleese.

I do not necessarily believe everything I hear on RTE, because it has been shown time and time again to be a station with a nationist bias. However, everyone I spoke to is astonished and disappointed at the Presidents remarks, and find it insulting to both the Protestants and the Jews.

McAleese had plenty of time to think about what she was going to say on the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auchwitz. It was a insult to say ALL people ( by implication , ALL Protestant people ) in Northern Ireland bring their children up to hate Catholics in the way the Nazis detested Jews.
All this coming from the leader of a state whose Taoiseach at the time signed a book of condolence on the death of Hitler. A state which today has a statue of Sean Russell in a public place in Dublin: he was an IRA man who collaborated with the Nazis and died on a U-boat.


It was insult to the Jews as well to say their suffering was comparable to that of Catholics in N. I. Mrs McAleese did not mention discrimination against minorities in the 26 counties which happened in the past, or how Catholics may bring their children up to hate Protestants and / or the British.
Did she ever listen to a history class in an Irish school ? Having suffered some discrimination in the 26 counties in the distant past, I am apalled having listened to McAleeses speech and I really feel like going up to Aras an Uachtaran and tearing up my passport in protest.

 

[Ocras]

Re: Scale of atrocity

"or how Catholics may bring their children up to hate Protestants and / or the British"

In the past, at least it was with some foundation!

 

[Rabbit]

Re: Scale of atrocity

Are you claiming it is right that Catholics are brought up to hate ALL Protestants and ALL the British ? It sounds like it. Were you really taught that what the Brits / Prods did to the Catholics was comparable to the Nazis treatment of the Jews ?
No wonder the Protestant population in the 26 counties shrank, not unlike the Jewish population.

 

[Asimov]

Re: Scale of atrocity

Ahh...the orgasms of righteous indignation you two so enjoy!
Pity its all based on utter exagerration.

Rabbit...you say Matt Coopers radio show straw pole is rubbish because RTE are biased? If you say so it must be true.
But the thing is...the Matt Cooper program is on Today FM! Are they biased too? Is everyone biased if they don't agree with you? It would seem so, how else can you explain how isolated and out of step your views are!

McAleese didn't say Protestants are Nazis...but thats what you are suggesting she said. Utter crappology.
And nobody said the Catholics of NI have suffered like the Jews in Auschwitz...again, pure exagerration which actually manipulates the holocaust dead to serve YOUR bigotted purposes. The fact is however that the holocaust began with the kind of basic discrimination and persecution the Jews experienced in Europe under the Nazis.

Interestingly, on the same Matt Cooper show there were comments texted in from Protestants living in RoI who ridiculed the assertion that they have ever felt discriminated against here. In my own experience working in a large company in Dublin, 75% of middle management are protestants. The company had a British Protestant CEO 50 years ago and almost every manager appointed since then has been protestant. They look after their own.

The protestants who persecuted and stoned the Catholic Children of Holy Cross National School in Belfast plainly had been taught how to treat Taigs...and they learned it at the knee of a state which was built on the foundations of the Orange Order - a protestant land for a protestant people - croppy lie down.

 

[Marion]

I have seen bigotry on both Catholic and Protestant sides.

Some of my friends who were Catholic and Protestant habited with a protestant rector and his wife. On one occasion, the rector and his wife were discussing social events that were about to take place in another town. They turned to their Catholic housemate and said " of course, this doesn't involve you". They were talking about social events involving protestant young people only. Obviously, a good looking Catholic need not apply!

In the same vein, my then boss tried his best to exclude protestants from social events and tried to (unsuccessfully) instill catholic values in a mulitdenominational school. He was what one would term a "black catholic" in the same way that the rector was a "black protestant" - eventhough, they were both otherwise very likeable characters.

These events relate to about 15 years ago.

When I was a child, my dad had a very good female friend who was Protestant. They tirelessly worked together to develop our village and they were both actively involved in Muintir na Tíre.

I vividly recall a party, which they organised, where we danced to the "Grand old Duke of York" while at the same time we learned rebel songs - "a nation once again" in school.

We were perhaps unique!

Marion :hat