Damp attic since insulation

Hi,

I installed 150 mm fibre insulation about 3 weeks ago I checked after reading this and it damp also - I installed the insulation right up to the felt all around so from reading through information should I have left 10MM between the fibre and the felt all around?

Thanks,

D

D and ,

This is not the case.
I realise this is a detailed technical discussion in relation to principles, but a few rules can be distilled.
Here is the link to Part F again http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1647,en.pdf

10mm is not a good practice airgap within the roofspace - you couldn't maintain a 10mm air gap with quilted insulation, it will creep, sag and bunch up.
A 300-400mm passage from eaves gap to attic of only 10mm depth would restrict airflow - its a long tunnel as opposed to a 10mm gap at the eaves through a 19mm board .

10mm is the eaves air gap required for a roof without dormer conversion or restrictions in flow.
Good practice and Part F compliance requires installing a 50mm eaves air gap to serve such a roofspace.
Condensation can also occur on the roofing felt above any insulation - the 50mm gap encourages good venting.

In fact any roof type, anywhere within the roof requires the 50mm gap - look at the dormer roof requirements in Part F.
The eaves gap is now 25mm but the clear air gap within the roofspace requires to be 50mm - this is the dimension to work to.

Its also important that you don't block airflow above insulation that extends across the wall plate.
You may have have either frozen the wall plate out of it or else enclosed it completely
Hard to say and in fact this is the hardest detail to get right with quilted insulation.
The aim is to insulate over it but leave a 50mm gap above the insulation.

You can form the 50mm gap by fixing "solid" insulation [not quilt] appropriately.
Snugly cut it to fit between the rafters and mechanically fix it if required.
Slide the cut sections down the rafter gap but it must be a snug fit.

If using quilt, you need to fix a thin board between the rafters to leave 50mm above it.
Don't install from a 200mm roll and then compress it by 100mm to leave 50mm.
This halves the trapped air and doubles the glass fibre - doesn't work well.
That why I advice HD "solid" insulation between the rafters.

Fixing with a board stops the quilted insulation bunching up and restricting the gap.

As I've noted before, insulating anfd venting detailing like this benefits from the advice of a professional.
Professionals deal with such matters on every building and are able to offer competent advice.
More importantly, they have gained experience of several different methods of compliance.
thus most situations can be competently addressed avoiding condensation build up.

D and , one final word in relation to "wet" insulation:

Depending on your insulation type, you may need to wholy remove and renew your installations.
Some insulation types absorb water and holds it, while other types can be dried by venting.
In severe instances the insulation will actually get wet and become very hard to dry.
Working remotely and not being familiar with the type I cannot say more on this.

Wet insulation can be even worse than no insulation, BTW.
It will conduct heat and evaporation is a cooling process.
Plus the water in it will move around and land elsewhere.
It can badly effect gypsum based materials and timber.
That is why wet insulation usually should be removed.

Remember.

1. Vapour check - restrict the passage of water vapour into the attic - attic hatches, downlights, ceilings without visqueen above or foil-backed plasterboard all allow passage.
2. Ventilate - ensure its equivalent to 10mm continuous eaves vent for an unconverted attic and 25mm eaves and 5mm ridge for converted/restricted attic space.
3. Insulate - after you've vapour checked and ensured adequate ventilation, insulate - review services, and insulate pipes and tanks [but not under tanks].

BTW , I cannot see how you can properly insulate water tanks using blown fill insulation.
You need to take the insulation from "floor" level in the attic, up the sides of the tank, leaving none below it.
You can do this by fixing quilted insulation or HD insulation boards around the tank, but blown fill will just slump away.
Its also a good idea to check all sides of the tanks, not just the ones you can see by looking from the attic access hatch.
And be very careful in an insulated attic - its very difficult so see where to place your feet properly and its easy hurt yourself.
Personally I never investigate attics alone if I can avoid it - always attend with someone to hold hte ladder and stay within earshot.

I hope this gives a little clarity.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]
 
Hi ONQ, to answer your query on insulating the tanks: they are fitted with insulated 'jackets'. Seems to be doing the job in terms of keeping them ice free, I checked them this morning to make sure.

I appreciate all the input you have given, and I don't want to shoot the messenger, by no means, but I am *wondering* (taking an optimistic outlook) that maybe:

1. there is some moisture in my attic which entered either a) after I insulated but before I sealed around the hatch / pipe holes in the hotpress etc or b) in the recent very cold and damp weather where there was very high relative humidity in the air. Continuing in the same optimistic vein, the moisture is not *necessarily* currently entering through the ceiling ( I also have a small attic over my extension which is insulated in like fashion, but has no vents per se, and is not damp);

2. the main attic has never been properly vented out due to having no vents (up to a year ago) or inadequate vents (up to when I doubled them a week ago);

3. it only manifests itself in calm conditions and with temperatures in and around 0C;

4. it is not causing any serious damage to timbers as long as it doesn't stay damp for too long;

5. it should clear up when we get a bit of 'normal' (breezier) weather, any lingering moisture (if any) in the insulation should get flushed out when the roof gets hot in the summer;

6. now that there are double vents, a new balance should be established between any damp that might build up in still and damp conditions and the extra ventilation that should hopefully keep it clear.

7. if it needs a bit more help I can try ridge vents / tile vents / gable vents.

And they all lived happily ever after.

Or am i completely codding myself?

Or maybe, with so many variables at play, the only way to find out is to wait and see?
 
Not at all Eamon.

Questioning advice is important.

I gave you a top down set of options.

Bottom up testing of each is useful in practice.

Your questioning and alert mindset will serve you well.

:)

ONQ.
 
Update: had a roofer out today who got up there and had a look (outside).

Straightaway he reckoned some of the ridge tiles are not pointed properly, hence the source of the moisture onto the felt and eventually into the attic space. No cracked tiles.

He's going to take off about 5 or 6 ridge tiles and replace them, properly bedded in with waterproofing and properly pointed.

Sounds plausible. Let's hope its has the desired effect. Will post when it settles down.
 
Update:

Condensation seems to be gone since the work on the ridge was done.

Seems that the simplest explanation was the correct one - that water was penetrating from above.

I suppose what threw me was that it was manifesting as condensation, not as a single 'leak' per se.

I now think it was getting in at the ridge, seeping down along the felt, hitting a batten, travelling left and right along the batten across the roof, and also seeping down along several rafters. It was soaking in (maybe via nail holes) along the sides of the rafters.

Once it was getting into the air in the attic, it was ready to condense out across the entire north facing felt when temps dropped, esp as I have a good depth of insulation now keeping the attic nice and cold.

At least that is my current theory!

Will be keeping an eye on it for any recurrence.

Thanks for all the inputs and hope this thread is of some use to anyone else with this problem.
 
Eamon, I'm new to this forum and was glad to come across your posts. I noticed water droplets on the underside of the felt in my attic today; I guessed it was either condensation or a problem with the ridge tiles. Can you confirm what the tiler charged you for refixing the ridge tiles? Thanks.
 
They charged me about 220 I think it was. They took off about 6 ridge tiles, cleared off old mortar, stripped off some tiles as well to investigate, and put it all back together, but watertight.

Anyway, in your case it may not be the ridge tiles, but hopefully it will be something simple, good luck with it.
 
HI eamonn123456

You got a good price for the work and I'm glad the source of moisture appears to have been cleared up.

However...

You'd be surprised how these things can recur, partly because there may be more than one cause at work.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]
 
I have managed to dry my attic by clearing the insulation away from the vents, it was previously dripping, but I am getting an alarm amount of loud cracking noises which is keeping me awake at night, I assume this is the timber shrinking, is this normal?
 
ONQ, I didn't always fully agree with some of your analysis (just most of it!), but I really have to say you were spot on about checking first for ingress of water, I should have got someone up on the roof (again) much sooner. Thanks again!
 
<chuckle>

Oh ye of little faith!

My analisis is based on case examples I have come across and the use of Occam's razor to miminise confusion.

Keep an eye on things still and check your insulation for dampness, if not wetness.

HTH

ONQ.

[broken link removed]
 
Hate to say it - but this problem is not sorted out yet.

Am seeing dampness along the top edge of some of the rafters, still on the north side of the roof.

Seems to seep down from above the felt, possibly via nail holes.

The only good thing is that the felt itself is dry now, even on the cold nights, so there must be less water vapour within the attic.

This dampness recurred just before the end of the dry cold spell, so I can't blame the rain.

I wonder if it is residual damp between the tiles and the felt.

If all else fails I think I am going to have to refelt the roof.

Dammit!
 
If the felt has "gone" at the ridge as you confirmed earlier, it could have gone elsewhere.
If it is I'd be asking the boys who repaired the roof how come they didn't spot it.

We once had a leak at our chimney, thought it was a loose flashing, discovered it was the felt, then spotted an old tear in the felt elsewhere and renewed that plus renewed all the felt edge along the gutter as a precaution because it was "threadbare".

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]
 
Thanks for responding ONQ.

Not sure where you got the idea that the felt was gone at the ridge - maybe I wasn't clear - it was the pointing.

The felt in general looks fine from the underside at least.
 
HI again eamonn123456

When you wrote

"I now think it was getting in at the ridge, seeping down along the felt"

I assumed that meant the felt was leaking.

The scenario you describe cannot or should not normally occur if the felt is in good condition and properly installed.

The felt should have been carried over the ridge preventing ingress here.

Ridge tiles are usually bedded in mortar resting on the slopign tiles or slates.

The felt on the slopes "sags" allowing valleys to form between roof rafters down which any penetrating rain can run in rivulets down to the gutter.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent persons should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
My best advice is that you should retain a competent building professional to advise you on these matters.
 
Thanks ONQ. I hear what you are saying. It shouldn't seep in along the rafters, any moisture should tend to run down the middle of the valley in the felt. Wonder why it does though....

I just don't see any leaks in the felt, nor is it threadbare. I am pretty much at a loss now as to what is going on. I think I have 2 options:

a. strip off the tiles, at least on the north side, re-felt (with breathable felt), put tiles back on;

or

b. wait til warmer weather, which shouldn't be TOO far away, and see if the roof dries out. If not, proceed with plan (a).
If it does dry out, keep an eye on it come autumn / winter, and see if it recurs. If it does, then proceed with plan (a). If it doesn't, then keep any eye on it.

Might be better to go straight to plan (a).
 
Update! Problem recurred.

Roofer said the chimney cap was not fitted right - the infill part around the pots was only filled level to the precast cap and over time had weathered, allowing rain to pool and later on seep down the stack, eventually percolating thru the stack and presumably evaporating into the air in the attic. That's the latest theory anyway!

So, he redid the infill, putting an extra layer of waterproofed mortar over the chimney cap, sloping it off to allow rain to run off.

Got the (cold type zeolite) dehumidifier on up there, got the RH down, checking with an electronic hygrometer.

Let it sit and hoped for the best.

Looks like it has dried out and no sign of seeping even after 3 days bad enough rain. RH is low at the moment due to hot weather, but can still get high on damp days. No sign of condensation last time we had frost. Fingers xed. Next winter will tell I think.

Thanks again ONQ for your insights!
 
This problem can be caused by warmer outside air entering a colder attic. If the outside air is say 5 deg.C high RH and the attic surfaces are say 0 deg.C then condensation will occur on the attic surfaces. Air ventilation will not always have a drying effect. If the outside temperature rises quickly it will be warmer than the temperature of the roof felt. if this air is near 100% relative humidity it will condense when it hits the roof felt. The weather conditions which cause this effect occur frequently in Ireland. A dry cold period is often followed by a rapid increase in outside temperature and usually this warmer air comes in from the Atlantic and is very high RH. The attic surfaces will not increase in temperature as quickly as this outside air and so become wet.
 
We did our attic last year. The rafters were 4" deep and the guy put in 4" thick rockwool. Then a film of polythene all over before fixing plasterboard. Will the rockwool get damp from interstitial condensation? We have two velux windows and a gable window.
 
We did our attic last year. The rafters were 4" deep and the guy put in 4" thick rockwool. Then a film of polythene all over before fixing plasterboard. Will the rockwool get damp from interstitial condensation? We have two velux windows and a gable window.
It depends on whether there is felt or a breateable membrane under the tiles? If it's felt, then you may have a problem. If you have a non-breathable membrane such as felt, you need to have a 50mm ventialtion gap between insulation and felt to prevent condensation issues.

If there is a breathable membrane, you're ok.
 
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