C
Chocks away
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Does anyone else get the distinct impression that the sinister and unGodly hand of Opus Dei is the puppet master? Why not publish everything? What is there to hide?
I think it would nearly be best all round (subject to that legal concern), to get it into the public domain ASAP, let 2009 be an annus horribilus (as HRH might say).
Horrible deeds, but on the clerical side its a bit unfortunate that the guilty are largely escaping (dead, unidentified publicly) and innocent (the vast majority of decent honest priests) are left to carry the can for it. If civil or public servants feel unloved, can you imagine what it must be like for an honest priest at the moment.
That said the victims are top priority and church coffers should be prised open for them, & in the long run final analysis it may at least lead to a more mature church and state relationship, and more acceptable ambitions of the catholic church in Ireland (i.e. I think its fair to say that the 'social control' aspect of a homogenous catholic state is gone for good, & good riddance).
Horrible deeds, but on the clerical side its a bit unfortunate that the guilty are largely escaping (dead, unidentified publicly) and innocent (the vast majority of decent honest priests) are left to carry the can for it. If civil or public servants feel unloved, can you imagine what it must be like for an honest priest at the moment.
That said the victims are top priority and church coffers should be prised open for them, & in the long run final analysis it may at least lead to a more mature church and state relationship, and more acceptable ambitions of the catholic church in Ireland (i.e. I think its fair to say that the 'social control' aspect of a homogenous catholic state is gone for good, & good riddance).
I was taught that in Catholic church parlance, if you did not tell the full truth you told a lie - by omission. A lie = a sin, so the Church is sinning. If absolution is contingent on remorse, then surely - unless it changes it's tune - the Church should not get absolution. A lie of this magnitude could cause a schism. Causing a schism is grounds for excommunication. Has nobody told God? Or is someone lying to him?
So, spiked no more.
Yet another hammering for the church - sackcloth and ashes all round. Hopefully some good will come of it but its a roundly depressing issue. Awful as it is to say but I think we're nearly becoming immune to such scandals, there's no shock horror anymore, just more grinding down - I'd say at this stage every diocese probably needs a similar investigation - clear the decks, get it all out of the way. Bit like Irelands economic uncertainty, the failure to take decisive swift action just prolongs the impact and the fallout.
Must be a dark dark day to be a priest in Ireland, I'd say the level of disillusionment with the institution must be at an all time high.
Yet another hammering for the church - sackcloth and ashes all round. Hopefully some good will come of it but its a roundly depressing issue. Awful as it is to say but I think we're nearly becoming immune to such scandals, there's no shock horror anymore, just more grinding down - I'd say at this stage every diocese probably needs a similar investigation - clear the decks, get it all out of the way. Bit like Irelands economic uncertainty, the failure to take decisive swift action just prolongs the impact and the fallout.
Must be a dark dark day to be a priest in Ireland, I'd say the level of disillusionment with the institution must be at an all time high.
I think history will be able to look back over the downfall of the Church and pinpoint it to the last 50 years or so.
No organisation can perform such evil and still hope to have the support of its people. The Church in this country is only surviving now because so many older people still cannot bring themselves to disown it. The falling attendances and lack of interest in vocations show that the middle aged and younger generations have already lost interest, and this is only going to grow in future, hastened by these revelations.
Bring it on I say.
No organisation can perform such evil and still hope to have the support of its people. The Church in this country is only surviving now because so many older people still cannot bring themselves to disown it. The falling attendances and lack of interest in vocations show that the middle aged and younger generations have already lost interest, and this is only going to grow in future, hastened by these revelations.
Bring it on I say.
Complainer
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True, but at the end of the scale, look at all the folks rushing to get their kids into the parish schools and lining them up for communions and confirmations.
While I'm not very religious, I think that christianity, of itself, is a good thing. The problem with the Catholic Church in Ireland is that, since the foundation of the State, it was all about power & social control.
In the last 20 its been about scandal, disgrace, hypocrisy unveiled.
I absolutely believe in total separation of church & state, no role in education & health, no "catholicising" of our legislation - e.g. licencing laws on Good Friday. OK they did much good (& harm) years ago in health and education, but now the government has stepped in, is footing the bill, and should take full control.
Once that separation process is complete (only partially there, church still owns schools & hopsitals I gather), then the power & social control aspect will be fully gone, and religion can find its true home as a personal matter, celebrated in congregations, expressed in charity etc.
I dont think the wiping of religion from the developed world would be a good development (leaving aside the outdated sectarian aspect of Norn Iron, or the looper element of radical islam).
In the last 20 its been about scandal, disgrace, hypocrisy unveiled.
I absolutely believe in total separation of church & state, no role in education & health, no "catholicising" of our legislation - e.g. licencing laws on Good Friday. OK they did much good (& harm) years ago in health and education, but now the government has stepped in, is footing the bill, and should take full control.
Once that separation process is complete (only partially there, church still owns schools & hopsitals I gather), then the power & social control aspect will be fully gone, and religion can find its true home as a personal matter, celebrated in congregations, expressed in charity etc.
I dont think the wiping of religion from the developed world would be a good development (leaving aside the outdated sectarian aspect of Norn Iron, or the looper element of radical islam).
As I mentioned on a post in another thread, I have a new baby arriving shortly.
I would love to make a stand and not get it baptised into this evil organisation now, instead letting it decide for itself when its old enough which religion (if any) it wants to follow. I'd rather the child was christian in attitude and respect everyone rather than have to be a Catholic immediately.
But the problem is the problem NOT baptising the child would cause. I can't imagine going to the in-laws or my own family and telling them the child's not getting baptised a Catholic. That would be the end of it.
So perhaps thats why so many are still queuing up - cos its expected.
dockingtrade
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No organisation can perform such evil and still EXIST. If this were a childrens charity it would be shut down. No one would want to be associated with it even the good ones in it.
This secrecy and dont say, dont ask bullsh*t attracted paedophiles to the catholic church becasue they knew they could get away with it. So these very policies the church adopted increased the abusing, it gave these people a channel to abuse with out consequence. The heiracry must have known that more and more abusers were joinging and which led to more and more victims. Look at the lenghts a paeophile will go to so they can abuse, so when the catholic church was there what did paedophiles do... they signed up.
I know theres good people doing good work in the catholic church, but I dont know how that can stay with it. Go away and form a new cult. This one needs to be exterminated up as far as the vatican. The vatican presided over this world wide abuse for years, it has to fall.
Complainer
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I understand this approach, and I'm in the same boat partially - We had ours baptised to ensure access to the local school. Mrs Complainer claims to 'believe' but wouldn't be great for getting out of bed on a Sunday morning. We had an interesting dinner-table conversation recently with a 5-year-old, along the lines of;
"Mammy, do you believe in God?"
"Daddy, do you believe in God?"
"Mammy, we do believe, don't we"
So she is already conscious of the differences.
I'm not sure it was specifically a magnet for paedophiles, how would they know say, in the 50's, that you could get away with this stuff?? Maybe an educated guess on their part, but still a grand claim.
Re exterminating the whole shebang, is that like saying get rid of world football becuase you think FIFA is rotten? Why should any Germans or Japanese have been spared at the end of WWII?? Are you in favour of bombing the bejesus out of Gaza because there are some Hamas operating from there? - basically I'm saying you cant impose rough justice on huge numbers because a minority are at fault.
The catholic religion is not entrinsically evil, some of the people operating in it were/are, they must be ruthlessly dealt with and never be allowed to perpetrate evil again. BUT there's no reason to wind up the whole religion, just give it its proper place.
dockingtrade
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The establishment new about it, covered it up and let it to continue. This is not just about few bad apples within an organization. Im talking the about the organization, the establishment. Does the Nazi party legally exist in Germany!!!! Read my post again Im talking about the organization, not the people. The comparisons you are making are absolutely riducluous.
Well I gathered you wanted to get rid of the whole religion, not just the administrative structure currently overseeing it, maybe I mis-read you.
If we take the example of the Nazi party, and with what limited knowledge I have of it I think they were dedicated to ruling the world as the Ayran race. So its kinda hard to repackage that into a new structure that would be acceptable - whereas you could disband FIFA and set up a new controlling body that would be acceptable.
Just like you could re-package a religion that purports to follow the example of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately (though I suppose there's no shortage of those already
).dockingtrade
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Well I gathered you wanted to get rid of the whole religion, not just the administrative structure currently overseeing it, maybe I mis-read you.
If we take the example of the Nazi party, and with what limited knowledge I have of it I think they were dedicated to ruling the world as the Ayran race. So its kinda hard to repackage that into a new structure that would be acceptable - whereas you could disband FIFA and set up a new controlling body that would be acceptable.
Just like you could re-package a religion that purports to follow the example of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately (though I suppose there's no shortage of those already
fair enough..sometimes its hard to be clear with something so emotive.
Duke of Marmalade
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Maybe recent revelations should cause us to rethink what was the real root cause of the Northern problem. We have been inclined to smugly dismiss slogans like "Home rule is Rome rule", or Paisley's ranting at paedo priests, or "the Pope is the Anti Christ" as evidence that the root cause was Protestant bigotry. Can we now understand why they were so adamant not to be forced into a suffocating catholic theocracy.
I can see their concern but remember that the north was a different animal since the plantations and throughout the time when the catholic church was banned (mass rocks 'n' all that). I'm not sure how the church interacted with the ruling British administration but lets just say I dont think it was ruling the roost. So from 1914 or so on, when our northern brethren were gearing up, I dont think it would have been a fear based on any compelling evidence.
Paisley was just stirring it because it suited him - he wanted the North to remain british because thats where his loyalties lie (&fair enough), but I think he was doing all sectors a disservice by bringing religion explicitly into it.
The_Banker
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Maybe he could see what we couldn't? Irish society was so intertwined with Catholic ethos (it took over our whole lives) that we probably couldn't see the forest for the trees.