Croke Park 2 - dead before it gets voted upon

Agreed - we are not going to agree :D

My opinion remains unchanged , Unions primarily exist to protect & if possible enhance the terms & conditions of it's members .

The Unions were pragmatic enough to enter into social partnership which in my opinion led to the advent of the Celtic Tiger which was then thwon away.

Actually as I read the above it strikes me you are right we are simply retreading old ground - I have no doubt we will debate the issue again , perhaps around the time the union members cast their votes ?
 
Agreed - we are not going to agree :D

My opinion remains unchanged , Unions primarily exist to protect & if possible enhance the terms & conditions of it's members .

The Unions were pragmatic enough to enter into social partnership which in my opinion led to the advent of the Celtic Tiger which was then thwon away.

Actually as I read the above it strikes me you are right we are simply retreading old ground - I have no doubt we will debate the issue again , perhaps around the time the union members cast their votes ?

I find that these circular discussions eventually grind to a halt if they are not lubricated with beer.
 
The Unions were pragmatic enough to enter into social partnership which in my opinion led to the advent of the Celtic Tiger which was then thwon away.



My opinion is that unicorns exist and live in the forests of Eastern Russia but, just like you, I have to evidence to support my opinion ;)
 
The Trade Unions were simply doing their job

I agree with this and think that the union should be doing everything in its power to represent its members. However, I don't think they did. There are in effect 3 groups of civil servants of interest now. (1) Those who entered in the Celtic Tiger, who, in a "normal" economy would not have been hired (2) Those working in the public sectors for many years and joined prior to the Celtic Tiger and (3) those recently retired. Groups (1) and (3) are the winners, IMO. Group 2 are effectively having their pay cut to finance those in group (1). Group 3 were always going to get away relatively unscathed because we haven't hit the bottom yet. The unions and government are responsible for killing the golden goose by expanding the numbers in the public sector in the way that they did. You mention below that the wage increases under bench-marking were not anything great and I agree. However, reversing this benchmarking via paycuts can only go so far before it becomes obvious that it's a head-count issue. If I was in group 2 I would be livid with my union.

Over the course of the last decades the Social partnership model guaranteed industrial peace
I often wonder about that. In the grand scheme of things, what's wrong with a few strikes or are well all gone soft? :) You'd also have to ask yourself what kind of support those striking would receive from the general public...


Management clearly failed appallingly
Considering that management themselves are in unions is it any wonder they didn't implement reform? Why should they when they are so protected?

One way or the other we are going to be left with a hugely bolshy , disincentivised workforce whose morale will be at an all time low & the quality of our public services is going to plummet alarmingly .

I totally agree and those paying for the service will ultimately pay. Would it not have been fairer to shutdown the servcices deemed least important/unaffordable whilst safeguarding the remaining workers and services?
 
My opinion is that unicorns exist and live in the forests of Eastern Russia but, just like you, I have to evidence to support my opinion ;)

As a pragmatic Trade Unionist living in the real world I must tell you that unicorns do not exist - as a group they decided not to avail of Trade Union membership & were ultimately wiped out by a running dogs of capitalism pack ;)

I have better news for you though on the existence of the Easter Bunny & Santa Claus _ _ _
 
As a pragmatic Trade Unionist living in the real world I must tell you that unicorns do not exist - as a group they decided not to avail of Trade Union membership & were ultimately wiped out by a running dogs of capitalism pack ;)

I have better news for you though on the existence of the Easter Bunny & Santa Claus _ _ _

Surely Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are shining examples of capitalist pigs so hated by trade unions? Maybe not the original versions but they have sold their image rights and are probably not paying a penny in tax. They probably have tax arrangements set up like google and do the double Irish.
 
Public servants are indeed getting hit again but it is still true that any private sector workers would jump at the chance of getting an equivalent job in the public sector.

This kind of generalisation really grinds my gears in the whole public/private debate - I know people who have turned down some of the few public sector jobs (in lower/middle management) on offer in recent times, because the package on offer - lower pay than they could command in private sector, but better terms (working hours, holidays) - couldn't justify the loss of earnings for comparative employment in the private sector.

Similarly, I know of a competition to recruit staff for ICT roles in the last year or so, where they were unable to fill all positions because of the gap between the market rates, and the public sector payscales for those roles.

For recent & current entrants, myself included, there is a healthy skepticism about the value of our supposed "gold-plated" pensions - I can't afford to assume that it'll be there waiting for me in 35 years, but I am paying just over 10% of my salary in there already (if you include the pension levy) without any say in the matter, so I suppose I just have to hope for the best... I took a job which involved about 15-20% drop in gross pay, and a bigger drop in net pay if you factor in the pension levy/contribution that I would have opted out of if I could. The incremental scale and what I now consider an overestimation of the value of my pension, and job security, were critical to my decision. I now have to have a long hard look at my position - ironically my private sector employability has improved as a result of my public sector employment.

The mantra of not being able to afford to continuing to pay "excessive" wages to PS staff is all well and good, but the reality is that if you pay peanuts you will only ever get monkeys. For example:

The young, mobile, highly educated/qualified, recent entrants to the PS will head back to the private sector ASAP, as the arithmetic will no longer add up to be in there - longer hours for less pay and less flexible working, and as I already mentioned, less value being placed on the promise of pension. With increments being messed around with, and advancement by way of promotion non-existent (redeployment being the order of the day to fill vacant roles, with scant regard for how suitable the candidate is for the role), the brightest and best simply cannot and will not stay.

This will reduce headcount, but not by getting rid of the deadwood - the people who are "lifers"; the ones everyone has heard stories about, who occasionally sit at their desk in between tea breaks, and are largely left alone because it's easier to do so than to waste others' time trying to cajole normal levels of productivity out of them. These people are inevitably the last ones to leave; they know they're onto a good thing (though they'd never admit it of course), so they're going nowhere until either a package is offered to entice them out, or they reach retirement. I see nothing in this deal to put skates under these people - they are a small but costly minority of the PS workforce, everyone knows they exist, and they should be the ones weeded out.

This for me is the real failure of the process, by both sides involved; they took yet more relatively easy decisions that will just cause more problems further down the line, rather than agreeing on real public sector reform.
 
I didn’t think it was possible to fit two oxymoron’s into the same sentence :D

The 'Pragmatic' in 'Pragmatic Trade Unionism' refers to the pragmatism of defending your own patch rather than a pragmatism on the state of the country. It's the definition of pragmatism to try ensure that you're not the sucker who takes the hit.

I think Deiseblue has always been up front and honest about the self interest element of trade unionism as opposed to any utopian socialist ideal.

I've no doubt you're an advocate of capitalism as it serves your self interest.

You guys are the same really!:)

99% of us are in pursuit of self interest, should we really care about the form (capitalism, socialism, etc) it takes?
 
I think Croke Park 2 is dead in the water. The real affects are trickling down and those who have been beaten down are set to be beaten down more.

The Gardaí are not buying the deal and although on the peripheral of talks have long opted out. The Nurses have thrown their hat at the negotiations also. So have some other trades unions. But, the CPSU (Civic and Public Services Union) have now abandoned Croke Park 2. Remember the CPSU up to a few short years ago were the laughing stock of trades unions with as much clout as a sick maggot. They have copped themselves on over the recent years and have become a lot less toothless.

SIPTU and IMPACT are still trying to sell Croke Park 2 to their members. I wonder if they can withstand the migration of their members shortly? Croke Park 2 is dead.
 
The Irish Federation of University Teachers with 2000 members & the TUI with 15000 members are both to recommend that the terms of the proposed deal be rejected.
 
The Irish Federation of University Teachers with 2000 members & the TUI with 15000 members are both to recommend that the terms of the proposed deal be rejected.
Higher paid so-called "Front Line" state employees are all against the deal.
They are victims of their own misinformation; for years they have quoted their basic salary when talking about pay levels and ignored the fact that a large proportion of their pay was made up of allowances that would not have been given in any other job or, in the case of yard supervision payments for teachers, used to be part of their core function and was carried out without extra payments for over 50 years. Now those allowances are being targeted and because the people receiving them have always minimised their scale and value the general public don’t see the big deal, in fact many see them as excessive perks that shouldn’t have been paid in the first place.
The allowance for the Gardai are even greater than those for teachers.
 
This kind of generalisation really grinds my gears in the whole public/private debate - I know people who have turned down some of the few public sector jobs (in lower/middle management) on offer in recent times, because the package on offer - lower pay than they could command in private sector, but better terms (working hours, holidays) - couldn't justify the loss of earnings for comparative employment in the private sector.

Similarly, I know of a competition to recruit staff for ICT roles in the last year or so, where they were unable to fill all positions because of the gap between the market rates, and the public sector payscales for those roles.

For recent & current entrants, myself included, there is a healthy skepticism about the value of our supposed "gold-plated" pensions - I can't afford to assume that it'll be there waiting for me in 35 years, but I am paying just over 10% of my salary in there already (if you include the pension levy) without any say in the matter, so I suppose I just have to hope for the best... I took a job which involved about 15-20% drop in gross pay, and a bigger drop in net pay if you factor in the pension levy/contribution that I would have opted out of if I could. The incremental scale and what I now consider an overestimation of the value of my pension, and job security, were critical to my decision. I now have to have a long hard look at my position - ironically my private sector employability has improved as a result of my public sector employment.

The mantra of not being able to afford to continuing to pay "excessive" wages to PS staff is all well and good, but the reality is that if you pay peanuts you will only ever get monkeys. For example:

The young, mobile, highly educated/qualified, recent entrants to the PS will head back to the private sector ASAP, as the arithmetic will no longer add up to be in there - longer hours for less pay and less flexible working, and as I already mentioned, less value being placed on the promise of pension. With increments being messed around with, and advancement by way of promotion non-existent (redeployment being the order of the day to fill vacant roles, with scant regard for how suitable the candidate is for the role), the brightest and best simply cannot and will not stay.

This will reduce headcount, but not by getting rid of the deadwood - the people who are "lifers"; the ones everyone has heard stories about, who occasionally sit at their desk in between tea breaks, and are largely left alone because it's easier to do so than to waste others' time trying to cajole normal levels of productivity out of them. These people are inevitably the last ones to leave; they know they're onto a good thing (though they'd never admit it of course), so they're going nowhere until either a package is offered to entice them out, or they reach retirement. I see nothing in this deal to put skates under these people - they are a small but costly minority of the PS workforce, everyone knows they exist, and they should be the ones weeded out.

This for me is the real failure of the process, by both sides involved; they took yet more relatively easy decisions that will just cause more problems further down the line, rather than agreeing on real public sector reform.
A massive +1.

By the way, the 'lifers' you mentioned, I'm surrounded by them. Men and women in their 50's and 60's sitting at the top of the pay scale, mortgages paid off, children grown up. Doing the absolute bare minimum, because a 1 or 2 in their so called 'annual review' doesn't matter anyway, and management letting it happen. Happy to collect their pay cheque every friday.
These people are the real winners from CP2.

Meanwhile the likes of myself has been in the Civil Service for 10+ years, have got consistently high annual review grades, and is still a Clerical Officer. It is soul destroying to see my colleagues happy to float along, not doing much at all, while I work hard for less money and no prospects of career advancement whatsoever.

I did a head count the other day. We have 40 people from Service Officer up to Assistant Principal in this office.
If I was running my own business, I would employ 7 of them. At a stretch.

If the CPSU thinks I'm going out on strike to protect the lifers, they have another thing coming. I've got a mortgage to pay and a daughter to feed.
 
A massive +1.

By the way, the 'lifers' you mentioned, I'm surrounded by them. Men and women in their 50's and 60's sitting at the top of the pay scale, mortgages paid off, children grown up. Doing the absolute bare minimum, because a 1 or 2 in their so called 'annual review' doesn't matter anyway, and management letting it happen. Happy to collect their pay cheque every friday.
These people are the real winners from CP2.

Meanwhile the likes of myself has been in the Civil Service for 10+ years, have got consistently high annual review grades, and is still a Clerical Officer. It is soul destroying to see my colleagues happy to float along, not doing much at all, while I work hard for less money and no prospects of career advancement whatsoever.

I did a head count the other day. We have 40 people from Service Officer up to Assistant Principal in this office.
If I was running my own business, I would employ 7 of them. At a stretch.

If the CPSU thinks I'm going out on strike to protect the lifers, they have another thing coming. I've got a mortgage to pay and a daughter to feed.

What that tells us it that the problem is overstaffing and under performance and what’s happening is that the Government and Unions are cutting your pay so that your inputs can cover your salary and that of the person beside you who does nothing. Your pay is being cut because you are subsidising wasters. How do you not blow a fuse with them every day?
 
What that tells us it that the problem is overstaffing and under performance and what’s happening is that the Government and Unions are cutting your pay so that your inputs can cover your salary and that of the person beside you who does nothing. Your pay is being cut because you are subsidising wasters. How do you not blow a fuse with them every day?
I could, but where would that get me? It wouldn't change a thing.
 
A massive +1.

By the way, the 'lifers' you mentioned, I'm surrounded by them. Men and women in their 50's and 60's sitting at the top of the pay scale, mortgages paid off, children grown up. Doing the absolute bare minimum, because a 1 or 2 in their so called 'annual review' doesn't matter anyway, and management letting it happen. Happy to collect their pay cheque every friday.
These people are the real winners from CP2.

Meanwhile the likes of myself has been in the Civil Service for 10+ years, have got consistently high annual review grades, and is still a Clerical Officer. It is soul destroying to see my colleagues happy to float along, not doing much at all, while I work hard for less money and no prospects of career advancement whatsoever.

I did a head count the other day. We have 40 people from Service Officer up to Assistant Principal in this office.
If I was running my own business, I would employ 7 of them. At a stretch.

If the CPSU thinks I'm going out on strike to protect the lifers, they have another thing coming. I've got a mortgage to pay and a daughter to feed.

I do sympathise with your older colleagues ( lifers seems a touch pejorative :) )- they have already suffered 2 payouts & are heading into a third as despite your assertion to the contrary they will not remain unaffected by CPA2 , they continue to do their job even if it is the bare minimum & to be honest it's hard to blame them given the circumstances for basically doing nothing more than their contract demands.

I believe that a huge number of PS employees are going to adopt the aforementioned working model , I was struck by 2 comments I read in the comments section of the papers. - one was from a HSE hospital manager who worked 50 hours a week to keep on top of his role even though his contracted working week was 37 hours ( the additional 13 hours were unpaid as he was not entitled to claim overtime ) , he mentioned that in his experience hospital staff , contrary to some media reports , always weighed in in doing any job when the occasion demanded it however from a managerial point of view he has said that the dreaded word ( from a managerial point of view :D ) " demarcation " is rearing it's head again as staff are hugely angry - he said he's giving up & is only going to do contracted hours.

The other comment was from a teacher in a disadvantaged area who organised a night class for 40 pupils on a weekly basis but is just demoralised , unappreciated & has cancelled it.

Bill , you are to be commended for doing excellent work during trying times but surely with pay being constantly attacked & promotion unlikely - sometimes you must say to yourself - what's the point ?

One way or the other we are going to see an increasingly angry Public Sector & this is undoubtedly going to be reflected in the services provided
 
I do sympathise with your older colleagues ( lifers seems a touch pejorative :) )- they have already suffered 2 payouts & are heading into a third as despite your assertion to the contrary they will not remain unaffected by CPA2 , they continue to do their job even if it is the bare minimum & to be honest it's hard to blame them given the circumstances for basically doing nothing more than their contract demands.
The point is that they are not doing their jobs to the bare minimum even to the very low standards that the unions have the bar set at. Because of this their pay is subsidised by their colleagues. The rest of your post is constructed on the false premise that they are in fact doing their job properly.
 
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