Council taking mixed development estate in charge, role of mgt co going forward?

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suzinurse

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Tried looking for relevant info but can't find anything so if anyone knows more please let me know.

I live in a mixed development in North Dublin and have confirmation from the Council that they are taking the estate in charge in July.

There is a management company for the development so what I want to know is that when the council take over,even though they will not be taking over apartments, how can a house owner get rid of the management company or does it just automatically happen that house owners no longer have to pay fees if the fees that they have been paying up until now, for lighting,grass verges are now in the hands of the council?

I am a house owner and I am presuming that I will not have to pay management company fees for services the council will be providing shortly.

THanks in advance.
Suzi
 
Re: Council taking estate in charge

The council will usually only take the roads and footpaths into public ownership. So likely you will face a reduction in costs but you will still have to pay service charges.

Apartment owners will still need block insurance and some form of communal bins (even if the council collect these there is still a charge). Depending on your apartment type there may also be lift maintenance and maintenance/cleaning of the common areas.

You will no longer have to pay for street lighting, grounds maintenance and public liability for roads and footpaths if I understand correctly.

The best thing to do though would be to organise to meet with the council and the management agent to trash out who is responsible for what.

EDIT: Sorry - just re-read your post and see you have a house. Yes, it would seem likely that you would not have service charges to pay. Find out if your longterm lease is transferring to the council and maybe make enquiries about acquiring the freehold. More legally minded people may be able to help here. I'll leave the above in case it is useful for someone in an apartment facing the same situation.
 
Re: Council taking estate in charge

Basically you are looking at dissolving the management company.

However, as there are apartments in the same estate it is more complicated.


  1. Is the management company for the apartments seperate?
  2. If not, is their budget at least seperate?
  3. Are both management companies solvent?
  4. Are all the units sold in the estate?
  5. Were the common areas transferred from the developer to the management company?
  6. Do you have a resident's association?
  7. Can the council advise? Note, the management agent will not be able to advise in this case as they will want to retain as much business as they can e.g. they will be biased.

We are in a similiar situation, but in Meath the council has no parks department and thus a residents association will have to arrange grass cutting. You are lucky to be living in the Fingal area, however, I understand Fingal do have a small fee for grass cutting. It will be a fraction of the cost of that of the management agent as they are arranging it. There is currently no regulation of management agents.

Taking in charge is good news for your estate, and it's great to see a council proactively doing it. Unlike other councils who haven't taken an estate in charge in years, and have no or a poor process for doing so in place.

Perhaps others can advise on dissolving the management company once the council has taken in charge the estate.
 
Re: Council taking estate in charge

We to are in a similar situation here in north kildare, our estate is currently in the process of been handed over to the council but certain terms the council have put in place have to be meet before they will take over. These terms seem a bit unfair to the residents as its not our fault we are in this whole mess to begin with. The council wants the developer to finish the final layer of road surface into the estate which the council says is the developers problem, but the developer is saying its not his responsibility because the road provides access to a school and running track both of which was not developed by the builder.

It seems that mixed developments with management companies are a right old pain in the backside and the sooner they are done away with the sooner the agents / developer stop creaming off us.
 
Re: Council taking estate in charge

It doesn't matter what the road gives access to.
Timing the final mettaling to coincide with the end of heavy traffic if the development adjoining as reachd completion is good practice - it'll mean the new road surface should remain undamaged for many years.
Stating that the develope has no obligation to complete the works seems to be a misrepresentation of the usual requirements of Councils.
In particular Councils usually request either a deposit or a bond to be netered into by developers to ensure the work gets done.
If the developer doesn't do the work, the bond is forfeit.
In relation to your estate, ensure that the Council have; -

  • checked the services installed by the developer were put in compliantly and
  • asked for a drainage survey to be done by the developer to prove compliance with the drawings.
Final road surfacing is something you can see - hidden service installations and drainage are not.
 
Re: Council taking estate in charge

Is this the only outstanding element of work? Do you have the developer's response in writing?

As onq suggests, the council should have a bond available to complete the road.

If the council won't use the bond to finish the road, one way forward would be to contact the Ombudsman.
 
Re: Council taking estate in charge

AKA said:
Is this the only outstanding element of work? Do you have the developer's response in writing?

As onq suggests, the council should have a bond available to complete the road.

If the council won't use the bond to finish the road, one way forward would be to contact the Ombudsman.
Click to expand...

Can you use the Ombudsman to do this?

I'd be very interested in your reply :)
 
I realise this is an old thread, but my situation is the same as the OP. I live in a house in a mixed estate with houses and apartments. The council has begun procedures to take the public areas in charge. There is a separate budget for houses and apartments but it is controlled by the same management agency.

My question is, what happens to the sinking fund? the houses will no longer have a management fee so I would expect that the tens of thousands of Euro we have paid into the sinking fund would be refunded. Maybe wishful thinking, but surely that is what should happen. As things stand the management company deny any knowledge of the council taking charge and as such will not discuss it. I have minutes taken from a council meeting where it weas confirmed, so they are clearly up to more funny business.

so basically, what happens to the sinking fund and how can we stop this going into the management agency\developers pockets or into the apartments fund?

Thanks in advance.
 
If the development is at a stage where a Co.Co. is taking it over, then it probably hasn't been well looked after up to now. There may not be a sinking fund at all. The sinking fund can be used to fund capital projects at any time and though always provisioned in a budget, it may only be notional if there are many non-paying properties within the development.

What does your last set of company accounts say about it?

If there is indeed a sinking fund, and the development is getting taken in charge, then outline your query by letter to both the managing agent, the directors of the management company and the relevant local authority.
 
Firstly you need to define what the coco will take in charge. Public areas may be limited to the roads, paths and sewers and streetlights as a minimum but may include more. IF it includes the greens then will it be all of them or just a part of them?

Even IF the coco takes the greens in charge they may not be responsble fo cutting or maintaining them.

The management fee covers the running of the company so even IF the coco is going to take on the long term maintenence of your greens there will still be costs associated with the company that I would expect houses to pay.

Sinking funds dont typically cover the greens, (aside from a major catastrophy what can actually go wrong with grass?) they tend to be predominantly for the buildings and as you mentioned apartments I'd assume it is to cover those elements.

The sinking fund must be detailed seperatley on the budgets. And since the MUD act you should of received detailed breakdowns of these prior to them being voted for and approved at AGM's.

If the houses have been paying into this sinking fund then why? What was it for? Typically the lease agreements will specify that houses will not pay for or contribute towards common buildings. That will include the sinking fund.

You mention a developer and an agent. What stage are you at? Is the estate finished? Does the developer run the company as a director?

Check your articles of association, can residents become directors?

Edit: Nothing should happen to the fund. It must by law be in a seperate account to he company's usual one and the money will continue on should it be needed for essential building repair.
Unfortuantley even IF the company charged houses for a proportion of the sinking fund you can never get a refund as far as I am aware. What you need to do is check your lease and send in writing this fact and that houses should not be paying for this. IF, you have a large amount of shrubs and or tree's, furniture or other items located externally then some sinking fund may be required to cover damage to these items. Car parks, gates or other items may also be a sinking fund issue that houses will have to contribute to. Again a breakdown is usually required.

Let us know...
 
purpeller said:
If the development is at a stage where a Co.Co. is taking it over, then it probably hasn't been well looked after up to now.
Click to expand...

Actually the opposite is usally the case. County Councils don't usually take over estates until they have been fully completed to a suitable standard in accordance with their Taking in Charge Policies.
 
It is only the common areas which are being taken in charge and the houses only contribute to the common areas. I agree its possible that the managements company's definition of the common areas and the councils may differ, but as "the common areas" is not defined in any legal documentation, I'm free to use the councils definition and as such will not have to contribute to any service charges once the council take over.

There are separte budgets for the common areas and the apartments. This includes a separate sinking fund.

There have been a few failed atempts over the years to take the common areas in charge and to be fair to the developers, they have done everything that has been asked of them to get the estate handed over. The current situation is that the estate is finished to the satisfaction of the council and the process of taking in charge has started.

I mentioned management\developer because the developer still owns 20 apartments and have a major vote in everything. They recently blocked some traffic management proposals. They also have directors who are getting paid approx €90K, so the management fee is as much about lining their pockets than it is about taking care of the estate (for which there is actually very little work done).

The sinking fund to date has been used to cover the short fall of residents who refuse to pay the service charge. There is over €50K left in the sinking fund, but I would imagine getting the rest back off the residents who haven't paid is fairly easy.

Liaiasing with the manangement company, particularly over reducing our fees or in this case giving us a large refund, is pretty much like talking to a brick wall. Hence why I am on here trying to find out what normally happens.

So if the fund is never refunded, then what happens to it? Where does it go? My case may be a little more complicated, so to simplify things a bit does anyone know what happens for a normal estate which gets fully taken in charge?
 
10one10 said:
It is only the common areas which are being taken in charge and the houses only contribute to the common areas. I agree its possible that the managements company's definition of the common areas and the councils may differ, but as "the common areas" is not defined in any legal documentation, I'm free to use the councils definition and as such will not have to contribute to any service charges once the council take over.
Click to expand...

Again this does not mean that the council will maintain the green's. Check with them.


10one10 said:
I mentioned management\developer because the developer still owns 20 apartments and have a major vote in everything. They recently blocked some traffic management proposals. They also have directors who are getting paid approx €90K, so the management fee is as much about lining their pockets than it is about taking care of the estate (for which there is actually very little work done).
Click to expand...

Its very unlikley you are paying for salaried directors. Typically the std articles of association prohibit any salaried directors. You must check this asap and if the accounts indicate salaries have been paid then you'd have a case against them.

10one10 said:
The sinking fund to date has been used to cover the short fall of residents who refuse to pay the service charge. There is over €50K left in the sinking fund, but I would imagine getting the rest back off the residents who haven't paid is fairly easy.
Click to expand...

You shouldn't use it for that. Its a very impressive fund, v.jealous. Again it will likey be allocated for the apartments.

10one10 said:
Liaiasing with the manangement company, particularly over reducing our fees or in this case giving us a large refund, is pretty much like talking to a brick wall. Hence why I am on here trying to find out what normally happens.

So if the fund is never refunded, then what happens to it? Where does it go? My case may be a little more complicated, so to simplify things a bit does anyone know what happens for a normal estate which gets fully taken in charge?
Click to expand...

Generally there are no refunds ever. Again what was your budget for the year? I would expect thereto be a vast reduction in the fee for the houses as the only costs you would be paying would be for the company expenses like accounting or stationary, printing etc.
 
Ok thanks for your advice. we have some shrubs but no green areas, although I have no doubt the management company will hang on in there and use these shrubberies as an excuse to continue to extort money from us. I seriously doubt any of the houses will continue to pay a service charge once the common areas are taken over.

Anyone any idea what usually happens to the sinking fund when an estate is fully taken in charge? As in when there is no longer a need for a management company?
 
Again as i have said the sinking fund is for the entire estate and wont go anywhere. It will remain as is for the repair and upkeep of the apartment buildings you mentioned. If you are worried about the shrubs left as part of the company's responsibility then request a quote from the company that will be maintaining them. Again this is NOT a sinking fund requirement but a normal budget item. IF the company is looking to charge a sinking fund for houses AFTER the taking in charge then request in writing send registered delivery a full breakdown of what it is for.

For the service fee to change they will need to provide a full breakdown as per the MUD act 21 days prior to an AGM at which all members will receive an invitation and company accounts. At this AGM you can either vote FOR or AGAINST the proposed budget IF your fellow residents are in agreement. As this came into being april 2011 you should of done this at least ONCE. If you haven't then the last budget was not set in accordance with the MUD act.

How big is the estate? Perhaps request the members register (again in writing.) which legally must be provided within so many days (see the ODC company handbook). If they fail to do this you could report them to the ODCE. If you can contact owners directly then you have a better chance of changing the running of the company.

You will all remain to be members of the company (houses) and will still have a service fee as there are many aspects of the company, legal and administation that need funding aside from the greens. Are there any other items in the common areas aside from green's? Your lease documents bind you into the company. You cannot get rid of it for any reason.

Subject to your articles of association which I suggested you check you may be able to appoint your own directors even during the construction/developer run phase. This will allow YOU the residents to set your own budgets as you see fit which ultimatley is how the estate will be run.

From our perspective the local coco only takes in charge the roads, sewers and streetlights so everything else remains managed by us. The houses have historically never paid any sinking fund towards the greens or the apartments. The later because the lease specifically isolates the upkeep of the apartments for those unit owners. Check YOUR lease and see what it says.
 
OK thanks for your good advice.

But I am still curious as to what happens to the sinking fund when an estate IS fully handed over. Or are you saying this has never been the case, that all estates have management companies? I know a few that used to and no longer do but nobody living there can tell me what happened to the sinking fund!

Just to clarify, our sinking fund is not for the entire estate. There is a separate sinking fund for apartments, so our fund should not be handed over to them, which again I'm still curious as you have not answered my key question which is what happens to the sinking fund.

Thanks again for your advice though, it is appreciated.
 
You MUST obtain a copy of your lease that you signed when you purchased your property and see what it says. IF you have been paying management company fee's then its a good bet you are part of a company. The lease will specify this clearly. A lease cannot be 'undone' or changed.

So you are saying that the sinking fund for the houses is cash rich to the tune of 50k!! Good god you must of been paying a handsome fee! Are you 100% sure that this sinking fund is: -

1/ Totally seperate and in a seperate bank account and just for the houses?
2/ Not the same fund that is part of the apartments but was just listed seperatley on the budget?

Do a quick check and take the sinking fund for the houses and multiply it by the number of houses ONLY and then the number of years you have been paying.

For example, if you estate has 100 houses then each house assuming all paid) contributed €500.00. Divide that by the number of years (say 5?) which means the SF was €100.00 a year. BEFORE any normal items

On top of this all of the other items on the budget list like (for example): -

1. Pest control.
2. Accounting.
3. Landscaping.
4. Bank charges
5. CRO fees
6. Public Liability Insurance.
7. Postage and printing.
8. Legal fee's
9. Admin.

should all be extra. If the houses are privatley owned and essentially private then unless you have specific costs the annual fee shouldn't be too high. Can you say what it is?? Wouldn't you still pay for many of these items as the company still needs to run?

You cannot generalise about fees as they are all specific to each estate but for private houses the costs should be very low. In the 'boom years' and with an agent and private landscapers our estate paid €150 per year for a house. We now pay half that with a resident run team.

The sinking should should sepcify what it is for. Its hard to understand what the SF is for in relation to private houses and why it would be so much. Until you can answer those questions above in relation to the lease and the bank account then it wont be possible to go any further unless we just speculate.

You can also get the accounts off the CRO site which is another good start and may shed some light.

I would suggest establishing some hard facts as indicated above and then it may be possible to understand the situation better.
 
There is a separate budget for the common areas shared by the whole estate, that is apartments and houses. On top of that, the apartments have another budget for maintenance, services, expenses etc which apply to apartments only. within that they have a separtate sinking fund which is for apartments only. So the €50K (which is the figure I was given when I asked the management company how much was in the common areas sinking fund) does in fact apply to the whole estate, so I would only expect the houses to be refunded what they are owed (0.72% if memory serves me correctly).

To simplify my question, I would just like to know in general, when an estate is fully handed over, as in the management company are no longer needed (which is what I was legally advised would be the case when I bought the house), what in that case happens to the sinking fund?

I just want an idea as to what normally happens, or in other peoples experience what has happened. I'll take it from there with regards to what happens in my situation which I agree is a little more complicated and which you correctly advise I will first need to gather some hard facts.
 
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