Civil Service is nice soft easy job, no pressure compared to the private sector

[Winnie]

Ok so I think Rabbit may be trying to stir things............but he does have a point.
Im sure there are people in the CS who do work hard............but there are plenty who have very handy numbers. I have had quite a lot of dealings with Public sector & spend quite a bit of time on site & in the majority of cases that I have come across 1 efficient person could do the job of 2 civil servants. Now I didnt have a problem with this when civil servants were being paid less but I look now & cs are getting paid pretty much equivalent (if not more in some cases) than private sector people for way less work.
& yes the 3/4 hr tea breaks do exist (sometimes they are even longer!). I remember particularly one place where people literally put their pens down mid sentance when the clock turned 5!
That said, this does seem to be more apparant in the lower grades, many of the more senior cs do seem to work harder but still not on an equivalent leve to private sector.

Im not even saying that it is the individuals fault. i have a friend who went in at clerical officer grade & worked hard, went for promotion & found that promotion was not based on merit but on how long you had been there.............after a while she just had not motivation to work hard as it made no difference. & that is why cs is so inefficient - people are not promoted on merit but on length of service/who you know.


But that is just my experience!

 

[Dipole]

My dealings with the local county council's housing department regarding anti-social and other problems in our locality have left me with a bad impression of public sector workers.
In-efficient, rude, mean spirited, disingenuous and cowardly are all words that spring to mind when I think of this department.
A jelly fish would have more spine than the people in that department but I got the impression that on account of the culture of that particular department these were requisite qualities for those employed there if they wanted to get along.

 

[edo]

Ok so I think Rabbit may be trying to stir things............but he does have a point.
Im sure there are people in the CS who do work hard............but there are plenty who have very handy numbers. I have had quite a lot of dealings with Public sector & spend quite a bit of time on site & in the majority of cases that I have come across 1 efficient person could do the job of 2 civil servants. Now I didnt have a problem with this when civil servants were being paid less but I look now & cs are getting paid pretty much equivalent (if not more in some cases) than private sector people for way less work.
& yes the 3/4 hr tea breaks do exist (sometimes they are even longer!). I remember particularly one place where people literally put their pens down mid sentance when the clock turned 5!
That said, this does seem to be more apparant in the lower grades, many of the more senior cs do seem to work harder but still not on an equivalent leve to private sector.

Im not even saying that it is the individuals fault. i have a friend who went in at clerical officer grade & worked hard, went for promotion & found that promotion was not based on merit but on how long you had been there.............after a while she just had not motivation to work hard as it made no difference. & that is why cs is so inefficient - people are not promoted on merit but on length of service/who you know.


But that is just my experience!

I think the main beef most private sector people have with the public sector is not with the pay and conditions , good luck to them , but the fact we appear to be getting very poor value for money for the very very considerable increases in expenditure that has gone in that direction in the previous 10 years.

I don't doubt that there are many civil servants who work extremely hard , but have issues as to where that work is directed and how many passengers are being carried along for the ride. To paraphrase Dr Michael Smurfit - unless properly managed and directed you can have many "busy fools" in large organisations - outwardly applying lots of perspiration but in large picture accomplishing Sweet Fanny Adams of any worth.

I dont think the Irish Managment Disease P.P.P (Piss Poor Planning) is limited exclusively to the public service - from my own experience unless you plan properly , both strategically , tactically and operationally, you can end up expending far more resources and man hours than you should really - I find this happening ,even in my own organisation ,by individuals , particularly, senior managment who have failed to plan properly for all scenarios and try and cover this up by using their authority to throw everything including the kitchen sink at the issue. But it would appear that the rigid structure of the Public services would appear to encourage this kind of complacency and apathy and overall sterility as in the end, unlike the private sector ,nobody has to take responsibility by carrying the can and ultimately the sack. the evidence is there for all to see.

The civil service requirements for hiring their executive class are quite high academically speaking and a lot of bright people join every year - but the fact that merit and ability appear to have little to do with promotion in many, but not all sectors has stunted the effectiveness of the sector and once you're permanent, with little or no chance of promotion except by doing time - its little wonder that sector functions as effectively as it does

to quote the British Comedy - Yes Minister

Minister Hacker in conversation with his Private secretary Bernard regarding how so much public service work seems to involve going round and round in circles without coming up with any definite conclusions

Hacker: "Doesn't the futility of it all depress you Bernard"

Bernard: "Not Really Minister - Im a civil servant"

ok - breakfast break over - I've been in since 7 - back to the grindstone

Later

 

[ajapale]

The original discussion concerned Civil Servants but it seems to have broadened out to include the Public Service (Guards, Nurses, Army, Prison Officers, Local Authority Employees etc). It could be broadened out to include the entire Public Sector (ESB, Bord Gas etc).

I suggest that keeping the discussion to the Civil Service proper would make for a more focused debate. But if posters want to widen it out to include the PService or the PSector then that ok too.

aj

 

[rabbit]

I also know of teachers who take the absolute maximum annual sick leave before they are financially penalised every year due to "stress". If they are so stressed how are they able to return to work just as the sick pay is running out?

I also know of a civil servant who takes legitimate parental leave and tops this up with the maximum annual sick leave in order to be off work during the school holidays.

I think we all know of civil servants / teachers like that, be they friends, relations, acquantances, neighbours etc. I know of one teacher involved in sport a lot who takes "dodgy" sick days off sometimes but is able to pursue his sport. I know of another who runs a lucrative little cash summer business but whose teaching sometimes suffers as a result. Another person I know who is a college lecturer brags about spending a lot of time in college photocopying and attending to his nixer business.

 

[ludermor]

left blank

 

[nelly]

my friend is a teacher and she enjoys the perks but feels there should be some way to get the bad teachers out. By bad teachers i mean one example she illustrated was a woman who used the strss/sick leave to her advantage for years as another poster outlined and basically took a year out recently to work in private sector. She came back more depressed than ever - she really loved the work, motivation, team work, dealing wiht people, craic (which in her opinion was different to a staff room - I can't comment) but "had " to come back as she couldn't leave the permanent and pensionable job after her.
She is missing days here and there still but reckons sure she would be doing a sub out of supervision if she came in when she was entitled to her days.

So a) what a waste of a sub wages covering a woman sho is not sick just refuses to go to work unless she really has to using up all sick and leave days available to her b)what a waste of human life is she is living a life she hates for a good pension and summer holidays c)why would anyone want to be a proactive principle of a school where you could have 2 or 3 of these people "working" beside you?

As i see it there is a lot of truth in some of the threads.

 

[homeowner]

From what I know of certain departments in the civil service (I can name them but I dont think I am allowed to here)....they do have regular tea breaks at 10am and again around 4pm and these breaks are supposed to be 15 mins but can stretch to 30 mins depending on how lenient you manager is. I know of people who used to work and who still do working in these departments who come into work around 9:30/9:45 and then go straight to their coffee break, do about 2 hours work and then take their lunch break, another few hours work then coffee break then home around 5pm. This is the norm for them. Granted they get paid less than their equivalent in the private sector but they dont work anywhere near the hours or produce anywhere near the same amount of work.

 

[TarfHead]

From what I know of certain departments in the civil service (I can name them but I dont think I am allowed to here)....they do have regular tea breaks at 10am and again around 4pm and these breaks are supposed to be 15 mins but can stretch to 30 mins depending on how lenient you manager is.

Sounds like it is around here -a large department in a prominent private sector company. Not everyone though. And some of those that do may have to have a cigarette break before they return to their desk !

 

[Dipole]

There has been an ongoing problem with theft from the Finglas Leisure centre for well over a year. The local council couldn't be bothered to resolve it. Just yesterday lockers were rifled again for the umpteenth time. I mailed the person who is "looking after" the issue in the council and here is the response I got

"

Thanks for that information. As you are aware there are disclaimer signs erected advising patrons that Dublin City Council will not be responsible for articles lost or stolen and also advising patrons that there are lockers provided in the reception area to store valuables. At this stage any claims received in relation to this matter will be repudiated.

Regards,

XXXX"

So there you have it, it's the public's fault that thieves prey on them in their civic amenities and that staff are glued to the spot behind the reception desk rather than checking the leisure centre for ne'er do wells.
Rather than make an attempt to catch the thieves it is easier to put up signs and pity the poor bugger that looses his shoes, watch, wallet, phone or keys.
The garda station is just down the road BTW.

The thing that annoys me most about the public sector is that it attracts a lot of people who just want a steady untaxing job, not a vocation. These are precisely the type of people who shouldn't be let anywhere near the public.​

 

[zephyro]

Sounds like it is around here -a large department in a prominent private sector company. Not everyone though. And some of those that do may have to have a cigarette break before they return to their desk !

The crucial point though is that the cost of this is borne by the company shareholders who have the option of selling, rather than by taxpayers.

 

[muffin1973]

I used to work in the public sector about 7-8 years ago. Stuck it for 6 months. Nice people but had nothing to do - very overstaffed. As far as I could see, they had meetings about meetings and set up so many committees you'd wonder what they were for and what they actually accomplished. The tea break I found hilarious as well - there was a tea lady who came around with her trollery and everyone had to stop working and have their cup of tea and a nice biscuit. Lovely. The mentality was hilarious though - it was all about the perks and the job was secondary.

Having said that my sister works in the public sector and has all her working life and works very hard - still she does have a ridiculous amount of holiday leave entitlements (nearing 40 days at the last count), whereas I have the legal minimum - not very fair but who said life was fair?

M

 

[Gordanus]

I think we have all seen the teacher in Rossport who is protesting against Shell. How is allowed to stay in her job is beyond me, with the amount of time off she has and her actions against the guards

Isn't she retired?

 

[rabbit]

Isn't she retired?

No, there was one on the radio who got caught out, as she was supposed to be sick / on sick leave , but was well enough to be at the protest demo.

 

[ramble]

Wait til decentralisation, then the civil servants will spend all their time travelling.
Public sector workers probably suffer a lot from doing jobs that aren't "productive" in the private sector sense. A public health nurse dealing with a lonely old person can't really say, "this conversation isn't cost effective I'm off".

 

[rabbit]

Wait til decentralisation, then the civil servants will spend all their time travelling.".

You must be joking. Many already spend the Sunday evenings stuck in traffic coming back from the country, rush hours each day stiuck in traffic, and then Friday evening going back down the country.

Public sector workers probably suffer a lot from doing jobs that aren't "productive" in the private sector sense. A public health nurse dealing with a lonely old person can't really say, "this conversation isn't cost effective I'm off".

Most "Public sector workers" are not public health nurses. I know one nurse who comes to help an elderly man ( who unfortunately is semi paralysed ) , and she spends less time than she is paid to, and the work she does there is of poor quality. She is better than nothing, but not great value to the taxpayer or to the mans relations compared to how the situation would be if she done her job properly.

 

[Amygdala]

How come so many know of lazy public sector workers and only complain about them here instead of to the relevant bodies?

 

[Dipole]

How come so many know of lazy public sector workers and only complain about them here instead of to the relevant bodies?

Well in my case it goes to the top.

My local councillor describes the senior officer I'm trying to get to address anti-social issues as worse than useless.
With regard to the theft from Finglas Leisure centre my communication has been escalated but it was escalated at the start of the year and the response at the time was to erect signs which supposedly absolve the council of all blame.
These organisations are sick from top to toe.

 

[RainyDay]

Having moved to a public sector role last year after 20+ years in the private sector, I think I can speak more knowledgeably on this topic than much of the pub talk that appears on this thread.

First, I think it is outrageous and cowardly for allegations to be made about an identifiable individual (the Rossport schoolteacher) on an internet bulletin board by anonymous users who have no specific knowledge of her personal situation. If you want to make allegations about a named individual, come out from behind your username and post details of your identity, so that the teacher can sue you instead of Brendan for libel. If you have a serious complaint about any teacher, contact the chairperson of the board of management or the Sec/Gen of the Dept of Education. Otherwise, I would strongly recommend that you withdraw your allegations.

In relation to the Finglas Leisure Centre issue, I wouldn't assume that nothing is being done. The formal response by email states the 'party line', just like many formal responses from private sector businesses like banks or insurance companies would do. It may well be (though I have no specific knowledge of this issue) that efforts are ongoing to resolve the issue.

In relation to claims of abuse of sick leave, let's not forgot that it takes much more than a phone call to arrange long-term sick leave. For a start, any sick leave of more than 3 days requires a doctor's cert. Extended sick leave would require assessment by the employer's doctor. If anyone has specific knowledge of sick leave abuse, they should notify the employer in question.

On the broader issue, my overwhelming view on moving from private sector to public sector is that things aren't really all that different. Most people work hard and care about their work. There are a few slackers on both sides of the fence of course. People get frustrated by the straitjackets of legislation and procedures in the public sector, just as people got frustrated by corporate bureaucracy in the private sector.

I took about an approx 30% cut in salary in moving to the public sector role, though I know my index-linked DB pension scheme probably makes up for this loss in the longer term. The biggest difference is time-off. I'm probably spending about 30% less hours at work, with very few late evenings and no weekends in work. [However, at more senior levels, the demands are greater. I do get emails from Director-level timestamped at 8pm or 9pm]. I get to take my morning tea break about 2 mornings per week - the rest of the time I'm just too busy. I get 30 days leave per annum, and up to 1.5 days per month flexi leave, which is a huge increase compared to my last job. Just like in the private sector, I'm under constant pressure to deliver more service with fewer resources.

They really aren't two different worlds. I've seen both sides first-hand.

 

[Dipole]

In relation to the Finglas Leisure Centre issue, I wouldn't assume that nothing is being done. The formal response by email states the 'party line', just like many formal responses from private sector businesses like banks or insurance companies would do. It may well be (though I have no specific knowledge of this issue) that efforts are ongoing to resolve the issue.

Rainyday, you are really giving them too much credit. The only reason the signs were erected was because I was tormenting them to do something and I had expected something better than signs. The first signs they put up which were in place for a few months were photo-copied and afixed with blu-tack.
Involvement of a local councillor doesn't appear to help much either.