Motor Chill supplied disc and certificate but Gardai said no insurance in place

[Leo]

I do not know what the law is. If an agent accepts the premium, is the insurance company liable for the cover?

Possibly worth highlighting in a separate thread but someone I know was stopped by Gardai for no insurance recently. They were able to produce the disc and certificate as supplied by their insurer, Chill. The Gardai confirmed that the IMI DB confirmed that no insurance cover was in place.
It transpired that Chill's communications with the underwriter was conducted via email, and specifically the email address of the individual Chill employee handling the policy.

In this case the Chill employee left the company shortly after submitting the policy renewal. Some time later the underwriter replied seeking clarification on some point, and getting no reply they cancelled the policy with notification being sent to the same email address.

I don't know what experience the Garda involved has with such matters but they have said they would expect Chill would look to deny liability in the event of a claim. They are also continuing to pursue the no insurance case.

 

[Throwaway555]

The Garda pursuing the no insurance case would be laughed out of it in court. Customer didn't know and had no way to know.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Leo

That is frightening. Are you sure you have the full story?

The guy presumably paid the premium?
He got the disc and insurance certificate?

He certainly has done nothing wrong. This is an issue between Chill and the insurance company.

I presume that the Garda has to prosecute it but hopefully the Judge will exercise his discretion.

Brendan

 

[Leo]

Are you sure you have the full story?

Yeah, last I heard they was case was to proceed, I'll check what the latest is. Yes, premium paid and disc and certificate was issued. However the Gardai have confirmed that neither of those are proof of cover as policies are often cancelled, they use the centralised database which shows correctly that there is no cover in place.

The Garda pursuing the no insurance case would be laughed out of it in court. Customer didn't know and had no way to know.

Ignorance is no defence. As Brendan mentioned, the judge can choose to apply discretion, and while chances are good that they will do so if and when the time comes, this still involves the expense and hassle of a day in court.

 

[Itchy]

They were able to produce the disc and certificate as supplied by their insurer, Chill.

Chill are the broker rather than the insurer, still, very worrying. I'm sure the insurance company is at fault here, too. They are still obliged to administer the policy appropriately i.e. by notifying the customer. In my last brokered policy (123 I think), when there is a mid-term cancellation, they have a T&C that they must notify the policyholder within 10 days. What happened to the premium? The policyholder did not get a refund presumably and Chill didn't question why or process the refund from the underwriter?

I would be strongly inclined to notify the regulator about this. And Chill should indemnify the policyholder for legal costs.

 

[mathepac]

The guy presumably paid the premium?
He got the disc and insurance certificate?

Proof of payment, required documentation displayed on the vehicle and possession of the certificate of insurance, plus no proof that the client was sent any cancellation notification or premium refunds , trumps the stupid database every time. I smell compo whether it goes to court or not.

 

[peteb]

That database only applies to fleet owners and motor traders.

Also something doesn't ring true here. Any cancellation of cover is by way of a registered letter to the address of the policy holder.

 

[mathepac]

Ignorance is no defence.

Lack of communication by the broker/insurer is. If AXA (for example) fail to tell me they've cancelled my policy then it is reasonable for me to assume I still have a valid policy in place.

 

[ClubMan]

That database only applies to fleet owners and motor traders.

You seem to be referring to this?

National Fleet Database

nfd.mtpl.ie

The Gardaí (also?) use this:

Irish Motor Insurance Database Ireland (MTPL and NFD) - MIBI

Access MTPL and NFD details on the Irish Motor Insurance Database. Reliable data for policyholders, vehicles, and authorized drivers.

www.mibi.ie

The Irish Motor Insurance Database (IMID), comprising the Motor Third Party Liability (MTPL) Database and the National Fleet Database (NFD), provides a single point of reference for motor vehicles insured in Ireland.

Tech helps Gardaí catch uninsured drivers | ThinkBusiness

Irish Motor Insurance Database implemented to help detect uninsured vehicles and drivers. Each year insurance claims for uninsured vehicles cost €60m to €70m.

www.thinkbusiness.ie

 

[Leo]

What happened to the premium? The policyholder did not get a refund presumably and Chill didn't question why or process the refund from the underwriter?

No refund issued, when questioned initially Chill insisted insurance cover was in place. This was a renewal, so new policy never came into effect. It was only after subsequent confirmation from the Gardai that Chill investigated further and confirmed it wasn't in place and they had missed all related communication from the underwriter, saying no one checked the mailbox of the departed staff member.

 

[Sarah Ryan]

saying no one checked the mailbox of the departed staff member.

Then the whole issue lies with the company and they are responsible for all the future comms of employees no longer working there.
I can't see how any prosecution would be followed through on.

If I left my company and somebody emailed a trade request to my mailbox and it was not actioned, it would be traded and price compared asap with no questions asked. Same if I was off on unplanned leave with no out of office set.

 

[Ravima]

You normally don't get the certificate and disc before you pay the premium. If you have paid and hold the cert and disc, then you are insured and insurer must deal with any claim. However, if you are paying by instalments and you have defaulted, then once the insurer cancels the policy correctly, as per Policy terms and conditions, you are not insured, even though you have cert and disc, which by theway, should be returned to insurer.

However, there is something not right in this query as no insurance employee, insurer or broker, would use a personal email address to contact the insurer/insured. All emails should come from the broker or insurer email.

 

[Sarah Ryan]

All emails should come from the broker or insurer email.

I am assuming he means from personal work mailbox and not a team / general mailbox?

 

[paper-folder]

I haven't bought insurance from Chill before, so apologies if I am incorrect on this. Do Chill issue insurance certs and discs? Anytime I've arranged car insurance through a broker, you pay over to them and they send out the documents, but the cert and disc are in the name of the underwriter. Any liability has to be with Chill who either issued documents before they were cleared by the underwriter or failed to have a system in place to deal with situations where the underwriter withdraws cover.

 

[Steven Barrett]

Ignorance is no defence.

It's not exactly ignorance. Disc and certificate issued, premium accepted and not refunded. Chill are an agent of the insurer and authorised to receive payments from customers. As far as the driver is concerned, their obligations to the contract are met and it would be unreasonable to expect every driver to check with their broker/ insurer that their insurance is accepted after the issuing of a cert...which is the document which confirms insurance. It is Chill's error, not the drivers.

 

[MrEarl]

Hello,

The fact that this even needs discussion, is nuts.

The policy holder should get a solicitor to immediately write to Chill, and the Insurance company, calling out the facts and making it clear that both are going to be held liable, to include a hefty compensation claim for the duress which has been caused.

I'd also ask for a copy of the letter to be sent, by registered post, to the Gardai, and to the Regulator (for info., rather than as a complaint, at least, for now).

The Regulator could be fluting around for years, if this goes in as a complaint, when it reality, it needs to be dealt with immediately (not least, because I assume it has resulted in the person having no motor insurance (and perhaps unable to obtain same, elsewhere), so perhaps impacting on their ability to work, take kids to school or whatever, and likely to also be facing criminal prosecution)

 

[Leo]

If you have paid and hold the cert and disc, then you are insured and insurer must deal with any claim.

As far as the law is concerned, you are only insured if there is an active policy in place which is registered on the database. The existence of a disc and certificate is not proof of the existence of insurance cover, policies get cancelled all the time and the certs don't self-destruct when that happens. .

Chill have confirmed there was no policy in place but said 'sure it's all grand, we would have taken care if anything happened', the Garda involved suggested they might not actually be so forthcoming in the event of a claim. There was no claim, so all we can do is speculate.

I'll report back once this all wraps up, not sure if they are interested in chasing compensation or anything but there's no point sending anything to the Gardai, they have been very reasonable to deal with and understand what has happened, but have said the evidence available to them clearly shows there was no policy in place so their hands are tied and it must proceed.

 

[DirectDevil]

Even if the defendant turns out not to be insured technically this seems looks like a case where the District Justice will strike out the summons.
It is possible to have no insurance in place and for the charge to be dismissed but it turns very much on the evidence.
In this case, the defendant seems to have taken all proper steps that they could to effect correctly a valid motor insurance.

It is hard to see how there is no insurance here given that the defendant furnished their contractual consideration (the premium), it was accepted and relevant documentation then issued.
This raises a reasonable assumption that a valid contract exists.
It would be for the underwriters to prove that they cancelled the policy / contract.

BTW if insurers insisted on arguing that no policy existed and there had been an accident in a public place and the certificate of insurance was still on the vehicle the insurers who issued that certificate would have to deal with any third party claims as the "insurer concerned".
However, this would not be the provision of indemnity under the policy.
In this scenario, the "insurer concerned" would be entitled to seek recovery of their outlay from the supposed policyholder.

I hope that the defendant has engaged a solicitor for the District Court prosecution.
It would be important to seek discovery of all relevant documentation and information from the underwriters and the brokers. The solicitor should seek an order for this from the District Court judge.
It would also be very important to summon relevant witnesses from the insurance company and the brokers to explain themselves in court.

If I was the defendant I would be seeking ;

(1) Acquittal on the insurance charge and

(2) Formal written verification from the insurers that I had, and always had, valid motor insurance in place.

The reason why I would insist on (2) above would be to avoid the scenario whereby you might be required to declare to another insurer in the future that that you once had a policy cancelled. otherwise, this is a potentially different world of trouble.

What a worrisome mess. Hope it all works out for the defendant.

 

[Leo]

Thanks for that @DirectDevil, they're still awaiting the summons but I'll pass that on.

 

[lff12]

Chill are the broker rather than the insurer, still, very worrying. I'm sure the insurance company is at fault here, too. They are still obliged to administer the policy appropriately i.e. by notifying the customer. In my last brokered policy (123 I think), when there is a mid-term cancellation, they have a T&C that they must notify the policyholder within 10 days. What happened to the premium? The policyholder did not get a refund presumably and Chill didn't question why or process the refund from the underwriter?

Most cancellations of this kind would be automated, it sounds strange that the insurer did not notify the customer if the policy was cancelled on the underwriters end.