Chief Herald of Ireland and Coats of Arms

[MrUpward]

Hello everyone,

For some time, I have been considering petitioning the Chief Herald of Ireland for a grant of a coat of arms. I think a coat of arms might be an enjoyable and interesting piece of family history for my descendants. Has anyone gone through this process before? Does anyone have any insight on coats of arms or the Chief Herald’s office.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

What is your surname?

I would say that it exists already.

I bought the Burgess coat of arms in a little shop on Dame Street. Crests and Arms. (It was of a man shouting and wagging his finger and being ignored.)

They had it on their database and printed it out for me.

Brendan

 

[Sue Ellen]

It was of a man shouting and wagging his finger and being ignored.

 

[mathepac]

Apart from AAM and Brendan, your other useful friend is Google:- https://www.nli.ie/en/heraldry-introduction.aspx

 

[horusd]

What is your surname?

I would say that it exists already.

I bought the Burgess coat of arms in a little shop on Dame Street. Crests and Arms. (It was of a man shouting and wagging his finger and being ignored.).

Brendan

Yer brave posting this Brendan, brave...

 

[MrUpward]

What is your surname?

I would say that it exists already.

I bought the Burgess coat of arms in a little shop on Dame Street. Crests and Arms. (It was of a man shouting and wagging his finger and being ignored.)

They had it on their database and printed it out for me.

Brendan

... That’s....not generally how it works (except for tourists), but I suspect that you’re just having a bit of fun at my expense.

 

[RedOnion]

... That’s....not generally how it works (except for tourists), but I suspect that you’re just having a bit of fun at my expense.

Of course that's how it works.

If you want to design a bespoke coat of arms, it costs €4,400 to get it granted.

Edit: apologies if I was a bit dismissive. Your posting history makes a bit more sense of the question.

Most Irish people don't really care about things like this. There's a 'family crest' for almost every surname, and they know about that and that's it.

For example, theres a 'Murphy' crest. You can buy keyrings with it. It used to be a nice wedding present that when 2 people got married you'd get a plaque with both family crests in it. That's about the extent of the use of them. People don't use headed paper, or wax seals with the crest.

People didn't get specific about having a special coat of arms for the descendants of John Murphy from Roscrea for example. It's not something that would have been done historically here, but was probably common in the UK for those with titles.

But, yes, by all means you can get a Coat of Arms for use by you and your descendants. Michael Flatley for example got one a few years ago - you'll easily find the artists details, etc. But it's be rare for Irish people to get one. Not completely uncommon for Americans with Irish roots to apply for one though.

Personally, I can think of much better ways to spend money than on something that'll die out after a generation or two.

 

[MrUpward]

If you want to design a bespoke coat of arms, it costs €4,400 to get it granted.

Personally, I can think of much better ways to spend money than on something that'll die out after a generation or two.

The money isn’t really a big deal. Financially, Americans earn a lot and that leaves us with a fair bit of discretionary income for oddball purchases.

Edit: apologies if I was a bit dismissive. Your posting history makes a bit more sense of the question.

It’s quite alright! I recognize that I’m a bit of an interloper here as an American. I’m not exactly asking about normal things that impact everyone.

As for my past posts, you have probably surmised that I’m an oddball American considering buying a derelict country house in Ireland and having it restored to serve as a vacation home. Americans are an odd bunch and Ireland is such a pleasant country in contrast to the US.

Circumstances are such that it’s hard to fathom for an American how many idyllic historic properties in Ireland are left to rot and could be acquired and restored for prices that are less than a closet sized apartment in NYC.

Most Irish people don't really care about things like this. There's a 'family crest' for almost every surname, and they know about that and that's it.

For example, theres a 'Murphy' crest. You can buy keyrings with it. It used to be a nice wedding present that when 2 people got married you'd get a plaque with both family crests in it. That's about the extent of the use of them. People don't use headed paper, or wax seals with the crest.

Coats of arms are not something most Americans would care much about either. I do use headed paper and I enjoy sending some traditional letters (mostly to thank friends and family for gifts, and holidays and birthdays). It’s certainly something that would/could make my correspondence a little more interesting. In business, I’m told that people enjoy the personal touch that goes into an occasional handwritten letter that I send.

I’m familiar with the faux coat of arms novelty items. I’m not sure I’d like to display a symbol belonging to some unrelated Scottish guy from 400 years ago who merely has the distinction of having had his name anglicized in the same way as my own surname.

People didn't get specific about having a special coat of arms for the descendants of John Murphy from Roscrea for example. It's not something that would have been done historically here, but was probably common in the UK for those with titles.

But, yes, by all means you can get a Coat of Arms for use by you and your descendants. Michael Flatley for example got one a few years ago - you'll easily find the artists details, etc. But it's be rare for Irish people to get one. Not completely uncommon for Americans with Irish roots to apply for one though.

That‘s not quite accurate. While Coats of Arms are a Norman invention, they generally do belong to a single person and his descendants, even in Ireland. The historical rule in Ireland is that a larger category of descendants and relatives could “display” the arms than would ever have been permissible in the UK. The Coats of Arms items for sale in novelty shops are basically the arms of any random guy with the same surname or even totally made up. When I looked through recent grants of Arms, it did look like they are mostly granted to Irish citizens of Scottish or Norman descent (based upon their surnames) and Americans of Irish descent.

 

[RedOnion]

That‘s not quite accurate. While Coats of Arms are a Norman invention, they generally do belong to a single person and his descendants, even in Ireland

Absolutely. But I think there are a small minority of Irish people who could (and would want to) trace their heritage back to someone who was actually granted arms. It might be a hangover from our history that it might be seen by some as a 'British' thing to have one, or upper class. Having traced most branches of my own family tree back to the 17th century, there's no indication that any of my ancestors had one.

In terms of you moving forward, you need to be able to show eligibility to apply, so a close connection to Ireland.

You might get some guidance by finding specialist genealogical groups, or heraldry groups, such as Heraldry Ireland who have a Facebook page: https://facebook.com/Heraldry.Ireland/

Circumstances are such that it’s hard to fathom for an American how many idyllic historic properties in Ireland are left to rot and could be acquired and restored for prices that are less than a closet sized apartment in NYC

To properly restore a period property here is a lot more expensive than you might think. But if you want a project to keep you busy, can I recommend this one:

 

[Thirsty]

Americans earn a lot and that leaves us with a fair bit of discretionary income

You mean "some" Americans don't you?

To be honest, even if you moved to Ireland to live here full time, you run the risk of being considered pretentious in purchasing a Coat of Arms to display on your writing paper.

My advice to anyone looking to resettle is to rent a property for 6 to 12 months before buying.

This board sees very frequent posts from folks considering a holiday home in Spain / France /Italy etc., and almost always the advice is not to do so.

Buying or building a holiday home in Ireland, from the US, would carry exactly the same warnings I would think.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

you run the risk of being considered pretentious in purchasing a Coat of Arms to display on your writing paper.

Agreed. You would become a laughing stock in Ireland. If you do get it done, keep it for correspondence with Americans.

This board sees very frequent posts from folks considering a holiday home in Spain / France /Italy etc., and almost always the advice is not to do so.

Buying or building a holiday home in Ireland, from the US, would carry exactly the same warnings I would think.

I don't agree.

It's not a good investment to buy an overseas property. But if you have plenty of money and can afford a holiday home in a place you really like visiting, go right ahead. But you should view it as an expense and not as an investment.

Brendan

 

[Yorky]

Considering indigenous Irish people are around one generation removed from the land (peasantry) apart from a small West Brit elite and living in a state less than 100 years old, a family coat of arms would be tenuous at best and slightly farcical at worst.

 

[Thirsty]

I don't believe I've ever read a more insulting and reductive view of Irish history and culture.

 

[cremeegg]

I’m familiar with the faux coat of arms novelty items. I’m not sure I’d like to display a symbol belonging to some unrelated Scottish guy from 400 years ago who merely has the distinction of having had his name anglicized in the same way as my own surname.



That‘s not quite accurate. While Coats of Arms are a Norman invention, they generally do belong to a single person and his descendants, even in Ireland. The historical rule in Ireland is that a larger category of descendants and relatives could “display” the arms than would ever have been permissible in the UK. The Coats of Arms items for sale in novelty shops are basically the arms of any random guy with the same surname or even totally made up. When I looked through recent grants of Arms, it did look like they are mostly granted to Irish citizens of Scottish or Norman descent (based upon their surnames) and Americans of Irish descent.

The use of heraldic type symbols as battle standards in pre-Norman Ireland did exist, but very little is known about that.

Coats of arms as known today are a British introduction, many dating originally from the 16th century when the policy of 'surrender and regrant' involved the British crown giving a British title with the associated trimmings to Irish lords, in return for recognition of the crown.

The idea that ' The Coats of Arms items for sale in novelty shops are basically the arms of any random guy with the same surname' is not really correct. There is a certain historical validity to them generally. While individual people received individual grants of arms, Irish clans were such that the arms of the clann leader belong to the clann as a whole. If you are a McCarthy (however that may be defined) you are as much entitled to consider the McCarthy arms (a red stag) yours as anyone else is.

However I don't really see why someone would wish to use them, would a native American proudly display the beads his ancestors traded for their land. While that is probably just me, most Irish people would laugh at coats of arms as pretentious.

On a more positive note, you have obviously taken a serious interest in your Irish heritage and I understand the appetite to claim something of this for yourself. I suggest the Irish language as resource, you can engage with it as casually or as deeply as you wish. An Irish phrase or saying would make a nice addition to your letterhead, perhaps something that connects to you personally, a place in Ireland, or maybe your professional interests.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

I suggest the Irish language as resource, you can engage with it as casually or as deeply as you wish. An Irish phrase or saying would make a nice addition to your letterhead, perhaps something that connects to you personally, a place in Ireland, or maybe your professional interests.

What a great idea!

Much better than a makey-uppy coat of arms.

cremeegg - have you any suggestions for a phrase or saying to suit MrUpward?

Cuir síoda ar ghabhar - is gabhar fós é.

Brendan

 

[cremeegg]

Well I dont know much about our OP, but here is one that may suit AAM

'Déanann saibhreas de réir a dheanta'

Which means that wealth may be made justly or unjustly, and it may be used the same way.