Chartered Accountants & CPA Merger

[Gordon Gekko]

Good morning.

Just wondering whether anyone has any thoughts on this?

i.e. the proposed merger between Chartered Accountants Ireland and the Instutute of Certified Public Accountants.

I’d have a pretty jaundiced view. The CPA qualification isn’t as prestigious or hard-won. So the idea of a cohort known colloquially as ‘Car Park Attendants’ sneaking in the back door and becoming Chartered Accountants is pretty abhorrent. And secondly it’s not appropriate or professional for Chartered Accountants Ireland’s President to look and dress like Johnny Rotten.

 

[Fortune]

"and if the plan is approved, the combined institute will operate under the Chartered Accountants Ireland name but with its members also able to use the ‘CPA’ designation, which is better known in some markets, including the US."

If I'd wanted a CPA designation, I'd have done the easier exams.

 

[T McGibney]

Chartered Accountants Ireland has been on the slide for years if not decades and is despised by a good cross-section of its own membership. A montage of Accountancy Ireland magazine covers over the past 5 years would make for alternately disturbing and comedic viewing, indicative of an organisation that has badly lost its way.

That said, I think it's most unhelpful and unprofessional to denigrate other professional accountants.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Chartered Accountants Ireland has been on the slide for years if not decades and is despised by a good cross-section of its own membership. A montage of Accountancy Ireland magazine covers over the past 5 years would make for alternately disturbing and comedic viewing, indicative of an organisation that has badly lost its way.

That said, I think it's most unhelpful and unprofessional to denigrate other professional accountants.

It was said tongue in cheek. The key point is that chartered accountants would have taken the easier and less prestigious CPA route if they’d wanted that designation. The proposal to allow CPAs to use the ACA/FCA is a disgrace. Good point on the magazine.

 

[Blackrock1]

Good morning.

Just wondering whether anyone has any thoughts on this?

i.e. the proposed merger between Chartered Accountants Ireland and the Instutute of Certified Public Accountants.

I’d have a pretty jaundiced view. The CPA qualification isn’t as prestigious or hard-won. So the idea of a cohort known colloquially as ‘Car Park Attendants’ sneaking in the back door and becoming Chartered Accountants is pretty abhorrent. And secondly it’s not appropriate or professional for Chartered Accountants Ireland’s President to look and dress like Johnny Rotten.

I agree with you on both fronts, its of no benefit to chartered accountants so the only people who gain here are the CPA's, why would a chartered accountant vote for this (its quite funny on linkedin there is a retired gentleman who was formerly the FD at Frank Keane who is making this point in a very forthright way on any post he can find).

As for the attire of our president. Its a sign of the times i think but i cant help feeling not particulary representative or appropriate for an accounting body.

 

[Blackrock1]

"and if the plan is approved, the combined institute will operate under the Chartered Accountants Ireland name but with its members also able to use the ‘CPA’ designation, which is better known in some markets, including the US."

If I'd wanted a CPA designation, I'd have done the easier exams.

correct me if i am wrong but the CPA designation here is not equivalent to the CPA designation in the US, basically the letters are the same so you can pretend is that what they are suggesting?

 

[WizardDr]

I recall that the august ICAI (the charter of course came from the Crown - doffing cap and all that) insisted on students having to work in a chartered accountants office in order to finish the exams. Running a large finance department much bigger than most puny practices meant a lot of us could not do ICAI. There were two alternatives - ACCA and CPA. The ACCA (also 'chartered') had much harder exams than ICAI just to be clear. Also ACCA is now pretty much worldwide. The ICAEW / ICAS / ICAI never really got the act together on extension to world wide status.

As regards CPA - particularly on tax exams as I was familiar with those - they were far superior to ICAI and seemed to reflect practice more.

I note that there is a backdoor with ICAEW which an ACCA can do if they like even in Ireland. The criticism ACCA was getting was that their practice audits were off the wall. This is without additional exams. Scandalous!

I note that ACCA refused a merger with ICAEW a number of years ago and the main reason was the members view of the blood sweat and tears taking ACCA versus ICAEW.

Engineers also have a chartered designation but I don't think they trumpet that as much.

Many of the accountants in BoI for example are/were from the ACCA brotherhood.

 

[Fortune]

I recall that the august ICAI (the charter of course came from the Crown - doffing cap and all that) insisted on students having to work in a chartered accountants office in order to finish the exams. Running a large finance department much bigger than most puny practices meant a lot of us could not do ICAI. There were two alternatives - ACCA and CPA. The ACCA (also 'chartered') had much harder exams than ICAI just to be clear. Also ACCA is now pretty much worldwide. The ICAEW / ICAS / ICAI never really got the act together on extension to world wide status.

As regards CPA - particularly on tax exams as I was familiar with those - they were far superior to ICAI and seemed to reflect practice more.

I note that there is a backdoor with ICAEW which an ACCA can do if they like even in Ireland. The criticism ACCA was getting was that their practice audits were off the wall. This is without additional exams. Scandalous!

I note that ACCA refused a merger with ICAEW a number of years ago and the main reason was the members view of the blood sweat and tears taking ACCA versus ICAEW.

Engineers also have a chartered designation but I don't think they trumpet that as much.

Many of the accountants in BoI for example are/were from the ACCA brotherhood.

I was doing CAI exams at the same time as a colleague was doing ACCA exams. We both agreed that, on comparison, the ACCA exams were the easier of the two.

Regarding worldwide recognition, a former colleague with an FCCA designation moved to California. He couldn't get a lookin for a job anywhere. No-one had heard of ACCA (I have my doubts that an ACA/FCA designation would fare much better).

 

[Blackrock1]

I recall that the august ICAI (the charter of course came from the Crown - doffing cap and all that) insisted on students having to work in a chartered accountants office in order to finish the exams. Running a large finance department much bigger than most puny practices meant a lot of us could not do ICAI. There were two alternatives - ACCA and CPA. The ACCA (also 'chartered') had much harder exams than ICAI just to be clear. Also ACCA is now pretty much worldwide. The ICAEW / ICAS / ICAI never really got the act together on extension to world wide status.

As regards CPA - particularly on tax exams as I was familiar with those - they were far superior to ICAI and seemed to reflect practice more.

I note that there is a backdoor with ICAEW which an ACCA can do if they like even in Ireland. The criticism ACCA was getting was that their practice audits were off the wall. This is without additional exams. Scandalous!

I note that ACCA refused a merger with ICAEW a number of years ago and the main reason was the members view of the blood sweat and tears taking ACCA versus ICAEW.

Engineers also have a chartered designation but I don't think they trumpet that as much.

Many of the accountants in BoI for example are/were from the ACCA brotherhood.

In Ireland, the majority of accountants who train at the Big 4 firms are chartered, the majority of accountants that trained in smaller practices and through industry are ACCA or CPA.

The only blood sweat and tears on the ACCA side is having less study leave as industry dont seem as generous in that regard, the exams arent any harder from what ive seen.

 

[WizardDr]

I think the issue with ICAI was that questions came from within the manuals - not so with ACCA.

The U.S. primary qualification was their CPA but I think that has changed but the U.S. would have been the exception.

One metric was that ICAI pass rates were high - you could of course argue that there was a superiority of students etc. - but ACCA had gone to separation of subjects as opposed to sections of say 4 subjects. This meant that each subject was on its own as regards pass rates - so you had to be in top quarter on all subjects to pass each one - ICAI would have had to be a blended rate of course ignoring market demand.

 

[Blackrock1]

I think the issue with ICAI was that questions came from within the manuals - not so with ACCA.

The U.S. primary qualification was their CPA but I think that has changed but the U.S. would have been the exception.

One metric was that ICAI pass rates were high - you could of course argue that there was a superiority of students etc. - but ACCA had gone to separation of subjects as opposed to sections of say 4 subjects. This meant that each subject was on its own as regards pass rates - so you had to be in top quarter on all subjects to pass each one - ICAI would have had to be a blended rate of course ignoring market demand.

I think it would be without doubt that the ICAI calibre of students (on a whole i mean) given the big 4 hoover up the best of the graduates from the best universities (or at least those with an interest in accountancy)

 

[WizardDr]

208,549 members
503,262 students
7,384 approved employers
323 approved learning providers

I suppose the diversity of graduates with ACCA ... what were the audit standards of the Big 4 - just to remind us?

 

[FintanJ]

As an FCA, I am against the merger. How do you vote? I have never voted previously.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

I think they notify members, a bit like Council elections.

 

[ArthurMcB]

As an FCA, I am against the merger. How do you vote? I have never voted previously.

ditto

 

[phoenix53]

As a mother of a recent qualified Chartered Accountant, I attended his conferring in the Chartered Accountants offices and was bursting with pride at his achievement. All exams passed first time. Mind you, I felt I sat some of them myself, the stress at home was so great at times. As a non university attendee and non professional exam holder, I left that building wishing I was an accountant.

I found Sinead Donovan, dressed non-conventionally but clean, neat and tidy, to be an inspiring, warm hearted, caring (of both the profession and new graduates), forward thinking person.

While she may not appeal to all, I don't think she will do your profession any harm whatsoever. Embrace her, she's great. You'll be back to the suited and booted soon enough I'd imagine. And I'm sure they will be equally as good.

 

[Annieindublin]

Wondering if your son will be voting phoenix53. And what he and his peers think of the proposals since their exam stress is so recent they may not want to grandfather in 5,000 people who took a different route.

i think how to vote is on the website, I did see some reference to it in a recent email.

 

[accountant1960]

Following this merger with interest. I will share my experience from Canada where we combined 3 accounting bodies into 1. I was one of the biggest opponent to the merger. I resisted to the end and I will share my views now in the later part of this message. Like many of you here, I share the same views where we are the most prestige and our designation is second to none.

Some of the issues facing the CAs were very apparent. It was not growing. Other bodies were catching up and in the next 10 years, it would no longer be the "leading organization" in terms of numbers. The lines between the other accounting bodies were diminishing.

Many of the more progressive saw the writing on the wall voted yes and we all became Chartered Professional Accountants.

Fast forward some 10 years later. Nothing has changed. All the fears of having the other bodies dilute the value of my designation, did not happen. We have a stronger voice in Canada and in the world because of the "numbers" Looking back, I should have voted yes and we reduced some 30+ accounting bodies to just 1 in each province and territories. We have less duplication.

My advice is to look long term. Look at what changed and what benefits come with the consolidation. Do not look at what you went through when you got your designation. They are no longer relevant as others have caught up. The exams over 4 days 30 years ago is not the same as now. We have internet that can find answers to questions easily.

It's not so much as the designation. Its the people. Embrace each other strength. The designation can only get you so far.....

My last thought is what happens if the merger fail? How will the accounting bodies move forward? Will there be a international merger like the CA Australia and CA NZ in the future for one of the accounting bodies in Ireland?

ps: In Ontario and Quebec, we are now trying to separate from the national bodies. And thats another whole discussion. National bodies do not have any power.

 

[misemoi]

On a high level, does the designation not matter as much as the training path? They tend to be aligned but is it not the skills and experience that employers hire for eg audit, working with certain clients or if you prefer someone industry trained? And to an extent, networks developed during training?

 

[Fortune]

Following this merger with interest. I will share my experience from Canada where we combined 3 accounting bodies into 1. I was one of the biggest opponent to the merger. I resisted to the end and I will share my views now in the later part of this message. Like many of you here, I share the same views where we are the most prestige and our designation is second to none.

Some of the issues facing the CAs were very apparent. It was not growing. Other bodies were catching up and in the next 10 years, it would no longer be the "leading organization" in terms of numbers. The lines between the other accounting bodies were diminishing.

Many of the more progressive saw the writing on the wall voted yes and we all became Chartered Professional Accountants.

Fast forward some 10 years later. Nothing has changed. All the fears of having the other bodies dilute the value of my designation, did not happen. We have a stronger voice in Canada and in the world because of the "numbers" Looking back, I should have voted yes and we reduced some 30+ accounting bodies to just 1 in each province and territories. We have less duplication.

My advice is to look long term. Look at what changed and what benefits come with the consolidation. Do not look at what you went through when you got your designation. They are no longer relevant as others have caught up. The exams over 4 days 30 years ago is not the same as now. We have internet that can find answers to questions easily.

It's not so much as the designation. Its the people. Embrace each other strength. The designation can only get you so far.....

My last thought is what happens if the merger fail? How will the accounting bodies move forward? Will there be a international merger like the CA Australia and CA NZ in the future for one of the accounting bodies in Ireland?

ps: In Ontario and Quebec, we are now trying to separate from the national bodies. And thats another whole discussion. National bodies do not have any power.

Chartered Accountants Ireland has 30k members.
ACCA have 13k in Ireland
CPA have 5k.

Doesn't seem like this merger will mean much to anyone but CPAs who would get to call themselves ACA, and maybe to h6er more subs to help pay for the mistake on Pearse street.