Changing liability for LPT on jointly owned house

[MisseyB]

I am estranged from the sisters that I jointly own a house with, and that my mother currently resides in. I've just found out that I was put down as the person liable for the Local Property Tax on the house even though one of my sisters has access to all of my mothers accounts and pays all of the utility bills on her behalf.

The sister who has access to my mum's account is refusing to give her PPS number so that she can become the person responsible for the LPT.

I know unpaid LPT can be taken from the estate when someone passes but I am self-employed non-payment of LPT will affect my ability to get a tax clearance cert.

The LPT is not a huge amount of money and I can pay it, but I suspect that this was done intentionally out of spite, and I'd love to be able to undo it if possible.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Towger]

Nothing to do with you Mother, if she does not own the house.

 

[MisseyB]

Nothing to do with you Mother, if she does not own the house.

Yes, thanks. I am aware of that. As it stands my Mum is taking care of all of the bills/taxes attached to the house. She put the house in our names on the advice that it would avoid the fair deal scheme. If i had a relationship with my sisters we would just split the tax between the 3 of us, but I don't. It seems strange that one person can be made responsible for the entire LPT without them being consulted on the matter.

 

[Marsupial]

Yes, thanks. I am aware of that. As it stands my Mum is taking care of all of the bills/taxes attached to the house. She put the house in our names on the advice that it would avoid the fair deal scheme. If i had a relationship with my sisters we would just split the tax between the 3 of us, but I don't. It seems strange that one person can be made responsible for the entire LPT without them being consulted on the matter.

If the house transfer was done recently, is it possible that the solicitor who performed the transfer might have been the person who nominated you as the person liable to pay LPT?

 

[Sue Ellen]

As it was your mother who transferred the ownership of the house to all 3 and she currently pays all the bills have you tried speaking to her to ask why the LPT is registered to your own name only?

 

[MisseyB]

If the house transfer was done recently, is it possible that the solicitor who performed the transfer might have been the person who nominated you as the person liable to pay LPT?

I think you may be right. This solicitor was hired by my Mum and sisters. I didn't have any dealing with them and had my own solicitor to advise me on the contract, but just to help me with the contract. My Mum's solicitor organised the purchase of the house. It's just a shock that I'm the person liable for the LPT.

 

[MisseyB]

As it was your mother who transferred the ownership of the house to all 3 and she currently pays all the bills have you tried speaking to her to ask why the LPT is registered to your own name only?

I did. My sister says it must have been my solicitor who did it, but I only contracted him to take a look at the contract I was being asked to sign. He didn't handle the house purchase at all. It was the solicitor hired by my Mum and sisters who did that. To be honest, I don't think my sister really believes it was my solicitor. I think she just said that to put my Mum off the track. I'd say this was done intentionally, knowing that as soon as my Mum is unable to give instructions on her finances, I'll be left to foot the bill for the LPT on my own.

 

[Dr Strangelove]

What arrangement (if any) was reached when the transfer of ownership was made?

I think you have a massive headache here in the shape of shared ownership of a house with people you don’t speak to. I think this is a much bigger hassle than the benefit of possible Fair Deal savings but that’s water under the bridge.

In the short run pay the LPT and write letters periodically to your sisters looking for their share. Keep copies. If they don’t pay you will be on a better footing to recoup it from the eventual house sale.

 

[MisseyB]

What arrangement (if any) was reached when the transfer of ownership was made?

I think you have a massive headache here in the shape of shared ownership of a house with people you don’t speak to. I think this is a much bigger hassle than the benefit of possible Fair Deal savings but that’s water under the bridge.

In the short run pay the LPT and write letters periodically to your sisters looking for their share. Keep copies. If they don’t pay you will be on a better footing to recoup it from the eventual house sale.

Thanks for the reply. I totally agree with you about the hassle of shared ownership. I encouraged my mother not to do it, but my younger sister is a bully and very money focused and my Mum doesn't like to go against her. It made the whole purchase so stressful for my Mum because my sisters kept documentation back from me until the last moment and then told my Mum that she'd lose the house if I didn't sign it by a tight deadline, which I just physically couldn't do. It was all very unpleasant and so unfair for my elderly Mum. But like you say it's water under the bridge now and there's nothing to be done about it.

No arrangement was reached in relation to LPT when the transfer of ownership was made. Or if there was I wasn't privy to it.

I think your suggestion to ask for payment in letters is a great one. I'll do that. I try to have as little dealing with my sisters as possible, because i always seem to come of worse when I do, but letters I could manage.

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply.

 

[Marsupial]

It seems strange that one person can be made responsible for the entire LPT without them being consulted on the matter.

It certainly does. It sounds plain wrong and may well be both fraudulent and a breach of GDPR.

So why not email revenue's LPT section (or their data protection officer), inform them that you have been registered to pay LPT on a jointly owned property without your knowledge or consent. Ask them to send you a copy of whatever documentation they have on file. (I think you'd be entitled to it under FoI) Bear in mind that Revenue take this kind of thing seriously.

And be sure to make your sisters aware that you're having it investigated on the basis that you consider that it may be fraudulent and an abuse of GDPR!

There's lots of reading material for you here, if you're interested in pursuing this angle:

Data protection

Data protection

www.revenue.ie

 

[Towger]

Only one person can be nominated to pay the LPT. If they do not pay then Revenue can go after the others. As the OP requires a Tax Clearance Certificate they don't have much choice but to pay.

Who is liable for LPT?

This page gives details of who is liable for Local Property Tax

www.revenue.ie

 

[Marsupial]

Only one person can be nominated to pay the LPT. If they do not pay then Revenue can go after the others. As the OP requires a Tax Clearance Certificate they don't have much choice but to pay.

I assume you mean that only one person can nominate him or herself, which didn't happen on this occasion?

(If not, then I hereby nominate you to pay my LPT! )

 

[Leo]

I assume you mean that only one person can nominate him or herself, which didn't happen on this occasion?

(If not, then I hereby nominate you to pay my LPT! )

Did you read the link?

It's likely the mother instructed the solicitor who oversaw the transfer. OP, ask your mother.

 

[Silversurfer]

Did you read the link?

It's likely the mother instructed the solicitor who oversaw the transfer. OP, ask your mother.

In our case it was assigned to the first person named on the Property register/deeds.

 

[huskerdu]

Ita annoying that it happened without the OP knowing and that the other joint owners wont pay their share, but all of the owners are jointly liable for LPT and one of them has to be the designated person, I cant see how it is a data breach or fraudelant that the OP is the designated person.

No-one nominated them as a randomer to be liable for the LPT on someone elses house. Its not useful to suggest that this could happen

 

[Sue Ellen]

It's likely the mother instructed the solicitor who oversaw the transfer. OP, ask your mother.

As it was your mother who transferred the ownership of the house to all 3 and she currently pays all the bills have you tried speaking to her to ask why the LPT is registered to your own name only?

I did. My sister says it must have been my solicitor who did it, but I only contracted him to take a look at the contract I was being asked to sign. He didn't handle the house purchase at all. It was the solicitor hired by my Mum and sisters who did that. To be honest, I don't think my sister really believes it was my solicitor. I think she just said that to put my Mum off the track. I'd say this was done intentionally, knowing that as soon as my Mum is unable to give instructions on her finances, I'll be left to foot the bill for the LPT on my own.

 

[MisseyB]

It certainly does. It sounds plain wrong and may well be both fraudulent and a breach of GDPR.

So why not email revenue's LPT section (or their data protection officer), inform them that you have been registered to pay LPT on a jointly owned property without your knowledge or consent. Ask them to send you a copy of whatever documentation they have on file. (I think you'd be entitled to it under FoI) Bear in mind that Revenue take this kind of thing seriously.

And be sure to make your sisters aware that you're having it investigated on the basis that you consider that it may be fraudulent and an abuse of GDPR!

There's lots of reading material for you here, if you're interested in pursuing this angle:

Data protection

Data protection

www.revenue.ie

Thanks for the suggestion to ask Revenue about documentation. I am going to do this. There's no harm in asking after all.

Re GDPR I did fill out a pre-purchase questionnaire that my Mum's solicitor sent over to me, but didn't realise it might be used for the LPT. But i'll look into the whole issue of GDPR and consent on this anyway.

Did you read the link?

It's likely the mother instructed the solicitor who oversaw the transfer. OP, ask your mother.

I should have clarified this earlier, but the solicitor was appointed by my sister to execute my fathers will, by my Mum to sell the family home, and then by my two sisters to buy a new house to be owned by the 3 of us, and lived in by my Mum until she dies. Therefore I'd imagine that in respect to LPT it was my sisters that instructed the solicitor to put me down as LPT, or the solicitor picked someone themselves. If I was alphabetically the first amongst my sisters, I'd suspect this was the case, but I'm not.

In our case it was assigned to the first person named on the Property register/deeds.

I thought this too initially but I'm not the first person named on the deeds, I'm actually the last, and alphabetically I wouldn't be the first either.

Ita annoying that it happened without the OP knowing and that the other joint owners wont pay their share, but all of the owners are jointly liable for LPT and one of them has to be the designated person, I cant see how it is a data breach or fraudelant that the OP is the designated person.

No-one nominated them as a randomer to be liable for the LPT on someone elses house. Its not useful to suggest that this could happen

You may well be right re no breach of GDPR, as I provided my PPS number to the solicitor, but I'm going to look into it and the whole issue of consent anyway just to see if everything is above board.

 

[Marsupial]

Did you read the link?

It's likely the mother instructed the solicitor who oversaw the transfer. OP, ask your mother.

Did you read the OP? Because it's pretty clear that the OP wasn't informed and didn't consent to being nominated to pay LPT.

Furthermore what right has any vendor got to instruct their solicitor as to which of the purchasers should be nominated to pay the LPT?

And even if it did happen, what right has the solicitor conducting the sale got to take such an action?

 

[Leo]

And even if it did happen, what right has the solicitor conducting the sale got to take such an action?

A solicitor can't represent both parties in a sale, so it doesn't arise. This of course wasn't a sale, it was a transfer where the person conducting the transfer can be the only one with legal representation and can dictate what names go on the order and in what sequence.

 

[MisseyB]

A solicitor can't represent both parties in a sale, so it doesn't arise. This of course wasn't a sale, it was a transfer where the person conducting the transfer can be the only one with legal representation and can dictate what names go on the order and in what sequence.

I'm not sure this was a case of ownership transfer, but I'm not a legal expert so I could be wrong. My Mum sold the family home and gave us the proceeds from that sale to buy a new house that she can live in until she dies. The solicitor that handled the sale of the family home for my Mum, was appointed to buy the new house by my sisters. I wasn't privy to this arrangement. I contracted another solicitor to give me some independent advice on the purchase contract. Hope that makes sense.