Yes, I do regard this as extremely naive. Even if the current 'powers that be' appear to be acting in your best interests, the next ones might decide not to. Don't give them power; you won't get it back.
Central Bank Digital Currency
- Thread starter Duke of Marmalade
- Start date
Yes, I do regard this as extremely naive. Even if the current 'powers that be' appear to be acting in your best interests, the next ones might decide not to. Don't give them power; you won't get it back.
It's politics so I try not to spend time on it - but I'd imagine he would have a decent shot at it if only he was a decent speaker (apparently its some sort of previous illness that has caused the raspy voice). To my point above, you say he's a nutter but he appeals to voters from two sides of the political divide in the US given some of the positions he's taking.
I specifically didn't mention Bitcoin for that very reason (non-BTC thread) - but seeing as you have now brought it up, yes, he's in favour.
It's all in the implementation. You think the Chinese are not going to use it as a means of tyranny? Of course they will. That's probably why their digital yuan project is light years out in front of all others in terms of its stage of development/roll-out. You can say 'but we're not China' - fair enough. However, when people recognize that the technology can potentially be used against them, who is asking the hard questions and ensuring that the right steps are being taken to prevent non-aligned use of the technology? Who is weighing up the risk/reward of giving this extra power to a CB?
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
Maybe nigh eve was the wrong word. I should have said "stupid" because from what I have read I just don't see the huge powers that say Fierce Doherty would have with a CBDC.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
For sure being a nutter does not preclude one becoming POTUS. The BoE is in no rush to CBDC and with this sort of "CBDC is a Chinese conspiracy" motif I don't see a CBD$ any time soon. No big deal.
Well then he is a certifiable nutter but let's not go off topic.
I am as much a subscriber to the "yellow peril" as the next person, I just don't see how CBDC will give them a route to tyranny that could not be pursued and are being pursued by much more direct methods. Please draw diagrams for me as to how "Someone's wealth could be switched on or off in an instant." Just take me for an example. My wealth consists of my house, my pension, my investments and a very small holding of money for day to day purposes.
Please help me recognise how CBDC could be used against me.
In your case, and your consideration of this (and everything else), it's not really off topic. Some day you might consider taking the blinkers off Duke.
Not the best use of my time given that I see how you're setting out the wagons (I have no money for them to take from me). We've done this already. I'll await someone else to bring a fresh perspective to the topic if it's alright with yourself.
There are far more people out there that recognize the dangers of a CBDC than there are folk who will disagree with you on BTC. A 5 minute google search will throw up a wealth of rationale as to the dangers. Start there if you're really so inclined. I know you're a committed statist and so I know you simply will refuse to recognize those very real risks and dangers - so on this occasion, I'm not going there.
Last edited:
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
@tecate so no answer to how "Someone's wealth could be switched on or off in an instant."
It was after all just sawdust thrown in the saloon.
Obviously others see other ways in which Fierce Doherty could use CBDC to oppress me. But I see you refer me elsewhere to find how. Disappointing as I had hoped this topic could be informative in its own right. Maybe others will fill the gap.
It was after all just sawdust thrown in the saloon.
Obviously others see other ways in which Fierce Doherty could use CBDC to oppress me. But I see you refer me elsewhere to find how. Disappointing as I had hoped this topic could be informative in its own right. Maybe others will fill the gap.
I've no desire to go over that a 5th time. I explained it to you - and you turned your nose up at it because you reckon it won't affect you - despite the fact that such a scenario would in the case of the vast majority of folks on the planet.
Did it ever occur to you that there's more going on out there besides your obsession with the shinners?
I certainly did. You said that you're genuinely interested in the topic and that you're agnostic re. a CBDC. That's a bare faced lie. Like a good little statist disciple, if the CB geniuses are suggesting it, you're backing it. As you've explained, you 'trust' them and have 'faith' in them.
If you had a genuine interest in learning more about this topic, you would have taken my suggestion on board - and spent the five minutes researching the common objections that are out there in active discussion re. a CBDC.
See above. It's [you're] certainly disappointing.
Yeah, I'd love to see it. I'll likely be low energy on this one. I think anyone that wants a CBDC without at a very minimum seeing some reassurances re. implementation is bonkers. I also believe that CBs and governments won't be able to help themselves and it won't be that long until there's quite a few of them floating around.
Sometimes, people have to see the full horrors to fully appreciate what's in front of them. My energy is reserved to pursuing an interest in an alternative to that tyranny.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
This note from the Cato Institute gives what I asked for, an easy to read explanation of what CBDC dystopia would look like.
So, on how my "wealth could be switched on or off at an instant" as per @tecate this is what it says. The scenario is where every economic transaction is done by CBDC and the Government have sight of the personal data of every such transaction. There are no notes or coin and there is no private sector money or if there is the government has the same look through to the underlying CBDC transaction.
My country estates, my castle, my stables and horses and my Rolls Royce would be still safely in my hands - my wealth could not be switched off. But if the government took a dislike to me they could exclude me from the economy. I could not pay my electricity bills, I could not pay the stable lads or the chauffeur, I could not enter my horses in races, I could not buy fuel for my Roller. Heck, I couldn't even buy a packet of fags. So forget my Marie Antoinette impersonation I would be no better off than the "vast majority" for whom their "wealth", being entirely in money, could indeed be "switched on or off at an instant".
Though, if the powers that be were so inclined, I could today be substantially excluded from the economy and be left scrambling with notes and coins, but for sure an entirely CBDC based economy would make the "off switch" easier.
Of course, this dystopia is a long way removed from the BoE musings in the OP. They are very keen to prevent government having access to personal transactional data. They very much see CBDC as acting in tandem with private money and they are particularly insistent that notes and coin are retained. But it could be the thin edge of the wedge and who knows what a future government might do, but if you over worried about that you probably wouldn't even build motorways which would facilitate rapid deployment of some future hostile state enforcement agencies.
Anyway, I have moved CBDC onto the negative side of my assessment. I really don't see the point and I see some genuine risks (rather than the Orwellian ones). The risk of financial disintermediation is very real. Also, and here I am just thinking instinctively as I haven't a clue, the cybersecurity risk would seem much greater in a fully centralised system. What are the benefits? The BoE is right. Be prepared but don't be a trail blazer.
Update: after a sleepless night I now know how I can avoid this Orwellian nightmare. I will open barter accounts. For example my Head Lad can have the use and prize money from my top racehorse provided he pays all my bills.
So, on how my "wealth could be switched on or off at an instant" as per @tecate this is what it says. The scenario is where every economic transaction is done by CBDC and the Government have sight of the personal data of every such transaction. There are no notes or coin and there is no private sector money or if there is the government has the same look through to the underlying CBDC transaction.
My country estates, my castle, my stables and horses and my Rolls Royce would be still safely in my hands - my wealth could not be switched off. But if the government took a dislike to me they could exclude me from the economy. I could not pay my electricity bills, I could not pay the stable lads or the chauffeur, I could not enter my horses in races, I could not buy fuel for my Roller. Heck, I couldn't even buy a packet of fags. So forget my Marie Antoinette impersonation I would be no better off than the "vast majority" for whom their "wealth", being entirely in money, could indeed be "switched on or off at an instant".
Though, if the powers that be were so inclined, I could today be substantially excluded from the economy and be left scrambling with notes and coins, but for sure an entirely CBDC based economy would make the "off switch" easier.
Of course, this dystopia is a long way removed from the BoE musings in the OP. They are very keen to prevent government having access to personal transactional data. They very much see CBDC as acting in tandem with private money and they are particularly insistent that notes and coin are retained. But it could be the thin edge of the wedge and who knows what a future government might do, but if you over worried about that you probably wouldn't even build motorways which would facilitate rapid deployment of some future hostile state enforcement agencies.
Anyway, I have moved CBDC onto the negative side of my assessment. I really don't see the point and I see some genuine risks (rather than the Orwellian ones). The risk of financial disintermediation is very real. Also, and here I am just thinking instinctively as I haven't a clue, the cybersecurity risk would seem much greater in a fully centralised system. What are the benefits? The BoE is right. Be prepared but don't be a trail blazer.
Update: after a sleepless night I now know how I can avoid this Orwellian nightmare. I will open barter accounts. For example my Head Lad can have the use and prize money from my top racehorse provided he pays all my bills.
Last edited:
That's all very well until its Taoiseach MacDonald and President Adams.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
He didn't say it was an advantage. He said it could bring us to a very dark place. I agree with everything he did say. The dark place is the one that the Cato Institute also alluded to. For those who want the Noddy guide, this is a description of the dark place. All financial transactions are in central bank digital money; the government has access to full personal data on all financial transactions in the economy; hence the government can decide which people and what items will be allowed to participate in the economy.
A very far cry from the BoE's musings in OP. And even in this worse case scenario a person's wealth could not be turned on or off at a switch.
Why not? That ability can be programmed in.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
No! I explained that my estates, stables, horses and my two Rollers are not money and therefore will remain mine. Of course the government could always confiscate them but not by the flip of a CBDC switch, they could do that now.
But yes I could be excluded from the monetary economy. At its simplest they could ban me from owning any CBDC. My wealth would be intact and I would have to resort to barter to live.
Look, drop the "someone's wealth could be turned off or on at a switch".
I approach this with an open mind. I am not convinced by CBDC. Don't see the point.
I've no intention in doing so. You're out of touch as regards what constitutes 'wealth' for the vast majority of people around the world.
This Bank for International Settlements (BIS) report/survey just dropped today. It expects 15 retail / 9 wholesale CBDCs to be in circulation by 2030.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
I am still trying to see the big deal with these CBDC, that existing extremely efficient payment systems don't already provide.
The BIS report kindly produced by @tecate suggests tokenisation, composability and programmability. Anybody care to give an idiot boy explanation of how these might change my life.
The BIS report kindly produced by @tecate suggests tokenisation, composability and programmability. Anybody care to give an idiot boy explanation of how these might change my life.
DazedInPontoon
Registered User
- Messages
- 357
Central Bank Digital Currency
See attached, quite informative for those with an open mind
www.askaboutmoney.com