CCPC gives permanent tsb goahead to buy Ulster Bank mortgages

[Brendan Burgess]

CCPC clears Permanent TSB acquisition of certain Ulster Bank assets - CCPC Business

The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission is an independent statutory body that enforces competition and consumer protection law in Ireland

www.ccpc.ie

Without any conditions at all:

Based on a review of the evidence available to it, the CCPC accepted the argument of the parties that Ulster Bank would have exited the State irrespective of whether or not the sale of the Target Assets proceeded.

The CCPC considered whether the proposed acquisition would result in a substantial lessening of competition, when compared to the alternative scenario of a sale of Ulster Bank’s mortgage and micro SME lending assets to an alternative purchaser, and found that it would not.

The CCPC does not have a role in approving or reversing the decision of a company to exit the State and it has previously highlighted its concerns in relation to competition in the banking sector. The CCPC will continue to engage with stakeholders, including the Department of Finance as part of its retail banking review to consider how to ensure the sector is open and competitive for the benefit of everyone.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

This is the Consumer Protection commission - they are supposed to protect consumers.

Yet no word at all about the implications for consumers!

Nothing at all about ptsb's lending practices such as discrimination against existing customers.
Nothing at all about how much more expensive ptsb's rates are compared to Ulster Bank's.

Brendan

 

[HollowKnight]

This is actually farcical.
Did they even read the document you wrote?

 

[skrooge]

To play devils advocate, what could they do. They could try to apply some conditions that might benefit some consumers but would that only serve to make Ireland even more of outlier given how difficult it is for lenders to repossess. Anything that effects the marketability and ultimately the sales price would will be noted by potential news entrants.

 

[Paul F]

This is the Consumer Protection commission - they are supposed to protect consumers.

Yet no word at all about the implications for consumers!

Nothing at all about ptsb's lending practices such as discrimination against existing customers.
Nothing at all about how much more expensive ptsb's rates are compared to Ulster Bank's.

Brendan

They didn't even have the wit to clarify whether or not PTSB will be obliged to maintain the 10% overpayment facility for Ulster Bank mortgage customers. Maybe it's beyond their remit, as so much seems to be...

 

[TRS30]

Will UB confirm now that my mortgage is going to PTSB?
If PTSB confirm I be treated as an existing customer, who is best to complain to?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

I assume that Ulster Bank will write to you.
Then ptsb will send you a letter of welcome.

A very good point. Are you going to claim that you are a new customer and so entitled to the cash back?

Well worth trying with the Ombudsman.

Brendan

 

[michaelm]

My submission to CCPC asked that PTSB be required to treat newly acquired UB mortgages as 'New Business' allowing customers to select a more favourable rate. I had low expectations so I recently re-fixed with UB.

 

[TRS30]

I assume that Ulster Bank will write to you.
Then ptsb will send you a letter of welcome.

A very good point. Are you going to claim that you are a new customer and so entitled to the cash back?

Well worth trying with the Ombudsman.

Brendan

I got an email re my current account a few days ago, no letter as of yet. Assume i will get something re mortgage and small loan (either email or letter) at some stage.

I fixed for 5 years with UB a couple of months ago so to avoid any issues with PTSB in the medium term. However, when this 5 years is up, I would argue I am a new customer with PTSB (was forced to move to them with no option) so should be able to avail of their new customer rates.

 

[noelÓm]

They didn't even have the wit to clarify whether or not PTSB will be obliged to maintain the 10% overpayment facility for Ulster Bank mortgage customers. Maybe it's beyond their remit, as so much seems to be...

A friend of mine made a submission to the CCPC that explained this overpayment issue and how costly it would be for Ulster Bank customers to lose. It would affect both my mortgage and his. So, the CCPC were informed of it and it seems they opted not to get involved.

My submission to CCPC asked that PTSB be required to treat newly acquired UB mortgages as 'New Business' allowing customers to select a more favourable rate. I had low expectations so I recently re-fixed with UB.

I expect PTSB to kick up a massive fuss about this. But who knows how competitive their new business rates will be in 3-5 years time. Work on the assumption that you will have to switch lender near the end of your fixed period.

 

[rameire]

Does PTSB not allow Overpayments on their mortgages at the moment. when I search up it says they do.

 

[Paul F]

Does PTSB not allow Overpayments on their mortgages at the moment. when I search up it says they do.

They kind of do but it's not exactly the same as UB's overpayment facility:

• You can overpay by as much as you like each month without penalty, and this builds up as a credit on your account
• You can use this credit to take a payment holiday or to reduce the monthly repayments (or to pay off part of the principal at the end of the fixed period)
• You are only charged mortgage interest on the net balance, i.e., on the mortgage balance after the credit has been subtracted
• See this thread for more details

 

[noelÓm]

Does PTSB not allow Overpayments on their mortgages at the moment. when I search up it says they do.

They kind of do but it's not exactly the same as UB's overpayment facility:

• You can overpay by as much as you like each month without penalty, and this builds up as a credit on your account
• You can use this credit to take a payment holiday or to reduce the monthly repayments (or to pay off part of the principal at the end of the fixed period)
• You are only charged mortgage interest on the net balance, i.e., on the mortgage balance after the credit has been subtracted
• See this thread for more details

Excuse me?! I always presumed the PTSB 'payment holiday' was a gimmick. What's the catch? I've looked through that entire thread and it seems like this is a very generous facility. I suppose you can't realise your equity gain fully until you transfer the credit account balance across to reduce the principal (perhaps at the end of a fixed rate period to avoid an overpayment penalty), but that is kind of an academic point. You can still cut your interest expense by a lot if you were so inclined, particularly if you are in the early years of a mortgage.

It seems like this condition applies to most PTSB mortgages, fixed and variable. So I think it would be hard for them to deny former Ulster Bank customers access to a 10% overpayment facility and to the normal PTSB overpayment facility. Perhaps we will even be arguing to be considered existing customers!

 

[TRS30]

Excuse me?! I always presumed the PTSB 'payment holiday' was a gimmick. What's the catch? I've looked through that entire thread and it seems like this is a very generous facility. I suppose you can't realise your equity gain fully until you transfer the credit account balance across to reduce the principal (perhaps at the end of a fixed rate period to avoid an overpayment penalty), but that is kind of an academic point. You can still cut your interest expense by a lot if you were so inclined, particularly if you are in the early years of a mortgage.

It seems like this condition applies to most PTSB mortgages, fixed and variable. So I think it would be hard for them to deny former Ulster Bank customers access to a 10% overpayment facility and to the normal PTSB overpayment facility. Perhaps we will even be arguing to be considered existing customers!

The overpayment facility is available to new and existing customers.

The issue of new v existing comes in when you finish your fixed rate that you came in on from UB. The options for 'existing' customer is much worse.

 

[noelÓm]

The overpayment facility is available to new and existing customers.

The issue of new v existing comes in when you finish your fixed rate that you came in on from UB. The options for 'existing' customer is much worse.

Yes, the poor treatment of PTSB customers post-fixed rate is well documented on this site. But 5 years of Ulster Bank rates and PTSB overpayment flexibility would be just swell for me.

 

[TRS30]

Yes, the poor treatment of PTSB customers post-fixed rate is well documented on this site. But 5 years of Ulster Bank rates and PTSB overpayment flexibility would be just swell for me.

And for me. Plan (assuming nothing changes) is to stay with PTSB on my 5 year UB fixed rate (2.2%) and overpay as much as possible. Hopefully be in a position to switch in 5 years if classed as PTSB existing customer/their rates are still poor.

 

[lff12]

This is the Consumer Protection commission - they are supposed to protect consumers.

Yet no word at all about the implications for consumers!

Nothing at all about ptsb's lending practices such as discrimination against existing customers.
Nothing at all about how much more expensive ptsb's rates are compared to Ulster Bank's.

Brendan

Ah but this is basically similar to the competition authority judgement the time a certain large Irish business bought out another similar business. They were concerned at market concentration and a concern that business number 1 were only buying it to stop other buyers from doing so.

At the time, I was working around the boardrooms in their HQ negotiating a large contract. and directors were literally laughing at the fact that the competition authority had basically allowed them to stop a foreign buyer from entering the Irish market. Within months they were the largest in their sector effectively increasing concentration in that sector.

Scrutiny here is incredibly poor, a blind eye is turned if the company doing the takeover is also Irish (because then its a "success story").
If it looks like a duck it probably is a duck.