Capitalism + Democracy = Myth

gillarosa said:
All of the rights we take for granted in our 'democracy' were concessions demanded and won by either the Trade Union movement internationally or campaigning political groups. It would never the case that a group of kind hearted Capitalists had a chat about the inequality staring them in the face and made decisions to change their world for the better.

The 8 hour working day
The 5 day working week
Obolition of Child Labour
Security of Employment
Pay Equality
Universal Healthcare
Universal Sufferage
Old Age Pensions
Free and Transparant Elections
and so on

None of the above were handed to us on a plate, yet so many of us take them for granted and sneer at the workings of the TU movement, would never blink before crossing an official picket line, failing to make it to the polling station on the day of an election...I guess we believe the Boss has our true interest at heart after all!?
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I disagree. While the trade union movement may have campaigned for the above, in each of these cases they were lucky enough to be on the winning side. The reality is that in an expanding economy, there is competition for workers and so employers have to offer better terms and conditions in order to attract or retain employees. In time these conditions become standard and codified in law. It is unheard of for better conditions to be granted in a constricting economy (when trade unions are at their most active). This phenonema has been around since the black death and so pre-dates the trade union movement (the black death lead to a shortage of labour which in turn led to employers having to abandon bonded labour/serfdom).

Interestingly enough, countries which are run by trade unions - communist parties are effectively glorified trade unions - have the worst working terms and conditions in the world.
 
ubiquitous said:
No, actually. The rest of Europe made up its mind about the usefulness of "Communist and socialist ideals" about 20 years ago. Not our Billy. :(
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Billy did an interesting bit of between-song-banter about 'what did your friends say when you told them you were going to a Billy Bragg gig', and you fall right into the stereotypical responses we all had a good laugh about. There appear to be based on some tabloid representation of Billy, rather than what he actually says/does.

I'm not a Bragg disciple, and I don't agree with everything the man says. I've generally enjoyed his albums, and I've particular respect for the work he has done on the archives of Woody Guthrie. But perhaps you'd consider not 'shooting the messenger' and maybe you could attack something he has actually said or done, rather than your own misinformed opinion of him. If you want to know what he thinks about the Berlin wall, listen to the podcast that I linked to above, and you can see that it is about a million miles away from your misguided jibe. I've never heard Billy singing the praises of the Soviet era communist regimes, which of course had very little to do with communism.

Oh and I guess you might consider informing the voters of UK, Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, several of the Nordic countries, Hungary and probably many other countries that "The rest of Europe made up its mind about the usefulness of "Communist and socialist ideals" about 20 years ago", as these countries have all voted in socialist governments in the past ten years or so. Perhaps they missed your memo?

Whatever you do, don't read the New Statesman article titled 'Socialism's comeback'.


Caveat said:
No system is perfect but capitalism allows anyone to make and create wealth - no-one is excluded from 'making it'.
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Please tell me that you don't believe that everyone has an equal chance of 'making it'? Do you believe that, oh let's say Gavin O'Reilly had an equal chance of 'making it' as [broken link removed]?
 
More and more I think the key to achieving something close to the ideal that is democracy is education. And I don't just mean literacy or mathematical ability. I mean general knowledge, and the elimination of ignorance. Some countries (which I won't name) believe that keeping a population ignorant is a good means of control. That may be true, but it is short term thinking, and will not propel a country forward on the route to sustainable greatness. Most empires have fallen when their populations have become complacent, lazy and ignorant. Democracy cannot flourish without an educated, knowledgeable and smart citizenry.
 
shnaek said:
More and more I think the key to achieving something close to the ideal that is democracy is education. And I don't just mean literacy or mathematical ability. I mean general knowledge, and the elimination of ignorance. Some countries (which I won't name) believe that keeping a population ignorant is a good means of control. That may be true, but it is short term thinking, and will not propel a country forward on the route to sustainable greatness. Most empires have fallen when their populations have become complacent, lazy and ignorant. Democracy cannot flourish without an educated, knowledgeable and smart citizenry.
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Well said.
 
Complainer said:
Oh and I guess you might consider informing the voters of UK, Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, several of the Nordic countries, Hungary and probably many other countries that "The rest of Europe made up its mind about the usefulness of "Communist and socialist ideals" about 20 years ago", as these countries have all voted in socialist governments in the past ten years or so. Perhaps they missed your memo?
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:confused: I cannot speak for the other countries you mention but if New Labour had told the UK electorate that they were voting for socialism, not to mention "Communist and socialist ideals", the Tories would still be in power. :)
 
Complainer said:
Oh and I guess you might consider informing the voters of UK, Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, several of the Nordic countries, Hungary and probably many other countries that "The rest of Europe made up its mind about the usefulness of "Communist and socialist ideals" about 20 years ago", as these countries have all voted in socialist governments in the past ten years or so. Perhaps they missed your memo?
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I wasn’t aware that any of these countries were communist (perhaps I missed the memo?). Some of them have social democratic governments but none of them are socialist states.
 
Purple said:
I wasn’t aware that any of these countries were communist (perhaps I missed the memo?). Some of them have social democratic governments but none of them are socialist states.
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Nothing wrong with Socialism, per se....it's when it mutated into Communism that the problems began.

Shure isn't Bertie Irelands best-known Socialist :)
 
I think the situation in China is a very interesting 'case-study' of what happens to capitalism when controlled by an non-democratic, authoritarian Govt.

Wealthy individuals have emerged in the cities, while rural areas are still very poor. I work with Chinese IT engineers who work for US multinationals in Beijing. I find they are very well educated and work hard. However, i have noticed that they tend to operate better when directed rather than deciding things for themselves. If you ask them to do something they do not agree with, they will publicly agree but passively resist. ie do nothing.
They are extremely loyal to China and its Govt and don't take criticism of their country too well.

It'll be interesting to see how Chinas experiment with 'controlled capitalism' turns out in the long run.
 
ubiquitous said:
:confused: I cannot speak for the other countries you mention but if New Labour had told the UK electorate that they were voting for socialism, not to mention "Communist and socialist ideals", the Tories would still be in power. :)
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I wouldn't be the world's biggest fan of New Labour (and indeed your oul friend Billy was pretty scathing about Irish Labour going 'New' just as the UK counterparts are starting to straighten out), but I guess that most of the UK electorate are smart enough to twig the connection between the Labour Party and socialist ideals.

Pique318 said:
:D True...bad example of socialism at work
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ubiquitous said:
Plenty wrong with socialism if you go by Bertie's legacy :(
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Dear lord, please don't tell me that anyone seriously believes that Bertie's legacy of a two-tier health health system, a hugely inflated property bubble, and a 'light touch' regulatory environment over financial services has anything to do with socialism.
 
If the general populace were educated on how to think for themselves instead of what to think we'd have a fairer system of government.
The ideal system of government should be a melting pot of ideals.
 
Complainer said:
Dear lord, please don't tell me that anyone seriously believes that Bertie's legacy of a two-tier health health system, a hugely inflated property bubble, and a 'light touch' regulatory environment over financial services has anything to do with socialism.
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Of course not, if we had real socialism we'd live in an egalitarian utopia, just like the other socialist countries such as... oops!
 
Complainer said:
I wouldn't be the world's biggest fan of New Labour (and indeed your oul friend Billy was pretty scathing about Irish Labour going 'New' just as the UK counterparts are starting to straighten out), but I guess that most of the UK electorate are smart enough to twig the connection between the Labour Party and socialist ideals.
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I don't understand then why you cited the UK as a country which had "voted in socialist governments in the past ten years or so" :confused:
 
ubiquitous said:
I don't understand then why you cited the UK as a country which had "voted in socialist governments in the past ten years or so" :confused:
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Simply to expose the gaping hole in your claim that "The rest of Europe made up its mind about the usefulness of "Communist and socialist ideals" about 20 years ago". I accept that Communism isn't top of many people's lists, but socialism is alive and thriving across much of Europe, thanks very much. And even the USA have taken a big step to the left (though I'm not claiming that Obama or the the Democrats are socialists).
 
At the risk of boring everyone I can only repeat:
ubiquitous said:
:confused: I cannot speak for the other countries you mention but if New Labour had told the UK electorate that they were voting for socialism, not to mention "Communist and socialist ideals", the Tories would still be in power. :)
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Ditto Obama and US voters.
 
Pique318 said:
Nothing wrong with Socialism, per se....it's when it mutated into Communism that the problems began.
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Since I've heard similar comments voiced on numerous occasions perhaps somebody would care to outline the basic difference between communism and socialism for me?
 
room305 said:
Since I've heard similar comments voiced on numerous occasions perhaps somebody would care to outline the basic difference between communism and socialism for me?
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Socialism from Wikipedia; "Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and an egalitarian society characterized by equal opportunities for all individuals and a fair or egalitarian distribution of wealth. Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement as well as the intellectual movement that criticized the effects of industrialization on society. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism."

Communism from Wikipedia; "Communism is a socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general.Karl Marx posited that communism would be the final stage in human society, following a socialist stage, which would be achieved through a proletarian revolution. "Pure communism" in the Marxian sense refers to a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life."

True Communism has never been achieved. The USSR is a good example of a socialist state in action.

Anyone who says that social-democratic states in Northern Europe are socialist doesn’t know what they are talking about. Most people who claim to be socialist are in fact social democrats. In recent years most Irish socialist politicians have attempted to change the definition of socialism rather than acknowledge that it is an utterly bankrupt philosophy.

The group that typifies this is the current leadership of the Labour Party who were instrumental in the reverse takeover of Labour by Democratic Left (formerly the Workers Party). They are a case study in the transition from Communism to Socialism to Social Democracy or, if you like, the journey from Lunacy to irrationality to rational and well meaning but economically illiterate idealism.
 
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