Building on family land legal issues..

Hi,

I was not sure how to title this as quite frankly it's a mess & sensitive. I have an uncle (in his 60's not married) who inherited my grandparents entire estate & farm in a lovely part of Mayo. For years my sister & her boyfriend are dropping hints for a site to build which gets embarressing put they persist, so this time they got their way. They have put in for planning permission to build there. I am furious, they are going to move from Dublin down there as her BF works in Sligo plus they just want a freebe & to take over the entire estate in a very sneaky way. There are 4 of us in line to inherit the place & the agreement always was that it stays in the family never to be sold. If those two get it all they will destroy what was built by my grandfather & his father & do the rest of us out of the place. They have been trying it for years.

I need to know can I legally challenge this and put a stop to the planning permission, my cousin & brother will support me except they would not be as vocal as me about it all but they don't want them to take over the place. There are alot of other issues at stake here that I won't go into, but in a word they do nothing for anyone & if they do the slightest thing it's in bright lights & the rest of us have to put up with it. They have one schoolgoing child & she doesn't work, my parents basically paid for their first house 2 years ago as they just seem to leech off our family. His side don't speak to him, even his own mother (a very rich woman) disowns him and that really annoys me that he is taking money & land from my family along with my sister & his family don't bother with them.

It's very sensitive, sick of my parents going along with them regardless, the usual threat is they keep their son away from his grandparents when they don't do what they want. I am married, have two kids, my husband would never behave like that & we have never got any financial handouts what so ever from them. The excuse with me is that I have a good job & god love my poor sister!!..could write a novel on it. I would never stop them seeing my kids & tbh they probably wouldn't care if I did stop all contact. I can see a major fallout here, nomatter how professional or legally correct I produce this they will support them and I for one will not let them take over that estate!.

Sorry for such a ramble but it's stressful to say the least & I am just wondering do I have a chance in stopping this??.

Thanks in advance!

"I am just wondering do I have a chance in stopping this??."

Your uncles decision. End of story.

You can object to the planning application but I doubt you will get very far.

Moral of the story. Don't count your chickens.

mf

The way I see it the land belongs to your uncle. It is his to do with what he wishes.
QUOTE "There are 4 of us in line to inherit the place & the agreement always was that it stays in the family never to be sold" Hello!!! Who agreed this? You and the other three? Was it discussed with your uncle?
Frankly I think this is very presumptious of you and should your uncle give away all his property to a home for bewildered stray cats, provided he is copus mentus, then that is nobody else's business. You do not once mention what your uncle says /feels/ thinks....

I would agree, if it is your uncles place then he can give part of the property if he so wishes. Maybe if you wanted to move to Mayo he would allow you land also ( I know you don't want to) but if you did I am sure he would help you also. If your uncle is happy to go along with it then what is the problem. You don't know that he will leave the land to the four of you, he could get married next year and leave it to his wife, who knows.......

I would rather the cats home got it than the two of them. I would love him to meet someone and get married. I hate the thoughts of him there on his own but he has friends and we visit all the time plus our Gran is in a nursing home close by so we are down all the time to see them both. It's not the money & land to me at all, as I would not sell any of it. We were told by our parents years ago that when we all inherit the place it's never to be sold to a third party outside the family. Apparantly my Grandfather told them the exact same that he would turn in his grave if the place ever changed hands!
My uncle is a very quiet man and he told me at the weekend he felt pressurized into it, and I knew that anyway that they cornered the poor man, he is extremely shy.
Unfortunatly, his literacy abilities are not the best & I do all his farming related paperwork for him and anything basic like a birthday card I would do that for him but it's grand. I don't make an issue of it and he asks me to do it like he is asking me for a cuppa so it's never awkward. They will take advantage of this fact and it frightens me. I told him he should get a solicitor and he has gone to see someone afaik. He is used to living on his own and has his ways which would annoy anyone but you should hear the things my sister and he BF say behind his back & laugh coz he can't do certain things and they are licking his ass now for that site, sick!.
It's a pity I haven't a legal leg to stand on as the first chance they get to hide things on us and dump him in a home they will. Then they will take over everything.

Well if your uncle feels pressurised into doing this then it is totally different. He will have to get independent legal advice before he signs over anything. Does he have a solicitor already? Couldn't he just transfer a half acre site to your sister to build a house on and leave the rest in his own name so that she cannot put him in a home and if any other siblings wish to move to Mayo they will still have a site?

They are being very sneaky, we are all back at work this week therefore nobody else is there after the weekend, we came back up yesterday and we found out last night they arrived down yesterday evening to "get the ball rolling"..in full knowledge nobody is around the challenge them.
He has taken my advice and went to see a solicitor yesterday afternoon plus he promised me he would sign nothing without me going over it. They are earmarking the biggest site on the whole estate and they also want the entire field which the farm is adjacent to so they are comprimising everything and my stupid mother is going along with it all.
To be blunt the way I look at it is, it's not my fault she can't get a job or my fault he can't get a job other than in Sligo...so they can just sell their own house & buy elsewhere like anyone else would do instead of pulling a fast one on a decent man.
You see, my mum has a major problem that my Nan signed the whole place over to him a while ago as she is very old and sick now. Thing is, why would she have given to my mother when we all live up here. My uncle lives & farms there and I don't see why she went ballisitic over it, there is plenty of money there for her instead of the land.
Can you also see my point that my sister isn't even married to her boyfriend and he is going to have a stake in my families land & he is a total out of what he can get.

Headachecity said:

Hi,

If those two get it all they will destroy what was built by my grandfather & his father & do the rest of us out of the place. They have been trying it for years.

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You have mentioned this concern several times but you haven't actually said if your uncle had made a will. As has been stated that doesn't guarantee that the estate will be bequethed as you'd wish or as you understand it will be, but it's the only protection there is in the circumstances. Moves can't be made on the property by anyone unless they first persuade your uncle to change the will.

If there isn't a will or you think your uncle is receptive to changing the existing one, would you feel happier if the ones getting the site don't share in the rest of the inheritance? It's probably the best that can be done but it's all down to what your uncle wants to do.

Yes he made a will a few years ago with the advice of my father. It was being divided equally between the 4 of us simple as, which is perfectly fair.
I have thought of that and I said that the site they want to build on is worth about €150k so they either buy it off him or get cut of the will and I was seen as the b*tch!!. They are going to compromise the whole place anyway buy building there as it's too close to the farmhouse but it's all part of their masterplan to take over the place. I can't understand why they don't build over the other side where it's more private and stand alone and not on top of the place, any other normal person would do that. They are even interferring with the silage making field and it's shocking that my uncle has said nothing there as he does it every year, it's like a religion.
My uncle does trust me, we always take about things etc but this time everything was kept from me, when myself or my husband were in the room with him one of them was standing there like a shaperone on top of him and I got a smart one liner email about what they are at.

QUOTE "Moves can't be made on the property by anyone unless they first persuade your uncle to change the will"

????
If the Uncle transferrs all his land during his lifetime it is immaterial what is in the will......
At the end of the day there appears to be a lot of bitterness both towards your sister and her partner and from your mother towards your uncle. At the end of the day in the absence of any undue influence your uncle can do what he chooses with his own land.
What seems to be forgotten is that despite who previously owned the land, your uncle inherited it and you have no more of a claim to it than I have unles your uncle transfers it to you or dies intestate....

The problem is this...I do NOT want my sisters boyfriend next or near that place, he even had the cheek to bring his father down there once to show him what he will own in the future eventhough they don't bother with him. We got a call from my Nan to say he had arrived down with his father out of the blue and she told us what they were saying!. She was furious then shortly after that she got ill. My Aunt cannot believe it but she always said he had an alterior motive. My sister is just like him. She is one of those "Ooops I forgot my wallet" types!.
What if they break up???..what happens then!. He moves all his knackers in on top of my uncle and they are always fighting it's embaressing it would not surprise me.

So he can do what he chooses being backed into a corner when I am not around to support him??. My husband said if this goes ahead we won't step foot in the place ever again and my parents can get lost going along with this. We will stay in a hotel and visit my Nan rather that go to the house and have them swarming all over the place like they own it.

Your Nan has already signed over this place. Your uncle has presumably been farming this place all his life. With all respect to your Nan she just doesn't have an input, and neither do you.
I know this is a very emotive topic but everybody seems to be loosing sight of your uncle here. What did his Solicitor say? You have said that none of you intend moving down there so your uncle may feel that he wants to pass on the land or at least a site to a relation who is willing to live near to him.
Were the land to pass to "the four of you" what would your intentions be? You say that it would not change hands? Do any of you intend to live there? How would sites be divided etc etc....

Well we would just leave things as is to be honest, we all adore the place and go down there all the time on holiday etc and would hate things to change. There is also a feud type thing with another family nearby there who in the old days did bad things on my ancestors etc and their generation that are here now are a bit loopy to say the least and are just waiting on the opportunity to buy up the whole estate, sure they nearly did a merry dance when they heard Nan was dying last year thinking they could pounce on the place, they are weird. My mother even hates them!.
Hand on heart I can tell you we would not be selling the place, as far as I know there is a clause in there somewhere anyway that it can't be sold, not sure it's something my mum told me.
He rang me last night and briefly told me that she spoke about the tax end of things and the fact that they might not get planning permission for that particular site etc and that he should safeguard the rest of the land & his house etc then he told me my sister just walked into the hall so he would talk to me again and that was it. Apparantly they went to a solicitor yesterday themselves and it didn't go too well, sure the rest of us will never know.
It would be fine someone there beside him if it wasn't the fact that we know what they are capable of and don't trust any of it. They did my father out of over €20k a few years ago and lied to him so many times he will never see it again!. Yet they practically wave in his face the fact that they could even partcially repay him.
I've decided to keep quiet and be there for my uncle should he need my support or input but I will make sure he protects himself from any possible fallout!

Headachecity said:

I've decided to keep quiet and be there for my uncle should he need my support or input but I will make sure he protects himself from any possible fallout!

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I think this is the best thing you can do.
You say that you would intend to leave things as they are should your uncle leave the farm to the four of you but this is not realistic. Everyone would have difference plans for their property and even in the unlikely event that the original four were happy to let things lie their children/partners might not feel the same.

"as far as I know there is a clause in there somewhere anyway that it can't be sold, not sure it's something my mum told me"
Even if there was it is unlikely to stand up in court.

At the end of the day, you just don't have any input. There seems to be a lot of people who feel some sort of entitlemnt to his property. If your uncle had family would anybody be interested I wonder? The man seems to have all of his marbles and in the absence of any intimidation he can do what he likes, whether you or your mother or your neighbours approve or not.

While no-body wants to see a man intimidated into signing over his property, there does not seem to be any concrete evidence of this and his solicitor seems to be aware of the situation have this covered and I suspect he may well feel caught in the middle of all this clammering for his land while no-one has asked him what he would like to do....

I think you are missing the point as I take offence that you seem to think we are after the land, which we are most certainly not and I clearly stated that. I am interested in protecting him from those 2 bullies. All they want is the place. I personally do not need it financially or do I need to live there. I think my younger brother might at some stage as he is really interested in the farming side & is a great help to my uncle when he is there. My cousin is in a similar position to me financially, doesn't need it but it's not the point.
I would not even be discussing the place only for what they have started and it's really terrible.
I don't think my uncle knows what he wants, he feels pushed into this as they have already started looking for planning permission so fast it's unreal. I hardly get a straight answer out of him when I ask him what he wants for dinner, nevermind this!.
What I do know is this, he loves his home, his farm, his animals and his land and nobody should take that from him. It's his home, where he is happy and just because he has no family of his own they are taking advantage out of him and the fact that his literacy abilities are so poor they are also using that too. I tried to get him some help years ago but he refused to go so I could not make him do it. I am also dissapointed in my mother in this and he attitude towards her own brother in this is terrible and my sister & her BF are playing on this aspect.

sheena1 said:

QUOTE "Moves can't be made on the property by anyone unless they first persuade your uncle to change the will"

????
If the Uncle transferrs all his land during his lifetime it is immaterial what is in the will......

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Thanks sheena1 for pointing that out. I lost the plot there for a moment.

You would like the land split into four? If so it is highly likely that at some time in the future somebody will want to sell their portion for any number of reasons and with or without planning permission. The idea of keeping the farmhouse and land as it is or as a holiday home is unfortunately unrealistic in the longterm.

I don't understand what is meant by putting your uncle into a home as he is transferring a site and not his own farmhouse?

If he is transferring the farmhouse for whatever reason and you are concerned about this, then a Right of Residence can be drawn up by your uncle's solicitor for both your uncle and grandmother which will give them legal entitlements to live in the property for the duration of their lifetimes.

The best thing you can do is to ensure that your uncle has independent legal advice and understands what he is signing. A good solicitor will ensure this is the case. After that it really is up to the current owner ie your uncle to dispose of his assets however he may choose.

Headachecity said:

I think you are missing the point as I take offence that you seem to think we are after the land, which we are most certainly not and I clearly stated that. I am interested in protecting him from those 2 bullies. All they want is the place. I personally do not need it financially or do I need to live there. I think my younger brother might at some stage as he is really interested in the farming side & is a great help to my uncle when he is there. My cousin is in a similar position to me financially, doesn't need it but it's not the point.
I would not even be discussing the place only for what they have started and it's really terrible.
I don't think my uncle knows what he wants, he feels pushed into this as they have already started looking for planning permission so fast it's unreal. I hardly get a straight answer out of him when I ask him what he wants for dinner, nevermind this!.
What I do know is this, he loves his home, his farm, his animals and his land and nobody should take that from him. It's his home, where he is happy and just because he has no family of his own they are taking advantage out of him and the fact that his literacy abilities are so poor they are also using that too. I tried to get him some help years ago but he refused to go so I could not make him do it. I am also dissapointed in my mother in this and he attitude towards her own brother in this is terrible and my sister & her BF are playing on this aspect.

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Hello - I know this is a very old post but I am working on a radio documentary about these kinds of issues, would love to hear how your situation worked out in the end. Would you be open to chatting about it?

PaulineD88 said:

Hello - I know this is a very old post but I am working on a radio documentary about these kinds of issues, would love to hear how your situation worked out in the end. Would you be open to chatting about it?

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If you click on their account you'll see that the poster was "Last seen 19 May 2008"

I love threads like this. It's like something out of The Field and is more about disliking your siblings than anything else. Pure poison.