Brian cowen still facing hostility over large pension, unfair

That contradicts just about everything else you've posted on this thread.

Dont be silly, of course it doesnt.
The reason you cannot afford a nicer house is the same reason why someone in social housing cannot afford to rent privately or buy.

If there are people living in social or local authority housing who can "well afford" to rent or buy privately, they are few and far between.
They are paying income taxes that go toward the cost of that housing, they pay Rent Differential or pay in accordance with Affordable Housing scheme. There is no subsidy.
If they choose to continue in local authority housing instead of paying for a nicer house like you or I would do, then thats their loss.
 
Okay, so you don't understand opportunity cost.
 
They are paying income taxes that go toward the cost of that housing, they pay Rent Differential or pay in accordance with Affordable Housing scheme. There is no subsidy.
Okay, so you don't understand opportunity cost.
 

Oh come on!! You are smarter than that economic argument.....Why doesn't the State just buy everyone a house if it only costs €3000 a year?? I would gladly give up my tax credits to pay for my three bedroom house...Thanks for that!
 
Oh come on!! You are smarter than that economic argument.....Why doesn't the State just buy everyone a house if it only costs €300 a year?? Seriously....
You're wasting your time, just as I'm wasting mine.
Maybe I should stop rising to such nonsensical arguments.
 
You're wasting your time, just as I'm wasting mine.
Maybe I should stop rising to such nonsensical arguments.

I'm thinking the same thing myself. Never going to get that time back and all that.

At least we are living in a society where these views are firmly in the minority and history is littered with failed socialist and communist regimes!
 
Okay, so you don't understand opportunity cost.


I do. Typically in trade it refers to the financial difference between the course of action that generates the most revenue or profit against the course of action that was actually taken i.e not generating the most revenue or profit.

Which is fine when dealing with straightforward concepts of private enterprise for profit.

But we are not dealing with a for-profit private enterprise issue here. We are dealing with a social issue that requires a public policy. There is no opportunity cost if the public policy, formed through democratic structures, can provide for housing that will, over time, return the cost of that housing to the State.

Oh come on!! You are smarter than that economic argument.....Why doesn't the State just buy everyone a house if it only costs €3000 a year?? Seriously....

Seriously? An argument was made in the last thread that the ‘market rate’ of a 2 bed terrace in Crumlin was about €2,000pm rental.

I don’t have all the detail to hand here, but the type of house that was used in the example was typical of the type of social housing that was built in the 1930’s, 50’s, 60’s and 70’s.

The price of such a house in the 1970’s was no more than €30,000. Such a house would be approaching 50yrs old at this stage, if not more. The private market sale price today starts at about €250,000. Presumably anyone paying that amount today is reasonably expecting that the property will last another 50yrs, if not more.

The State, being here before I was born, and I expect that it will be here when Im gone, is in the luxurious position that any costs borne by it (or rather the citizens) can be accounted for far longer periods than the average lifetime of its citizens. That’s how the State can embark on massive capital programs such as building airports, introducing electricity to every home, http://ireland2050.ie/past/electricity/ which cannot be taken on by individual citizens nor offered by private enterprise.

So such a house, lasting 100yrs or more will cost the State nothing more than the equivalent of €300 per year – this is simple maths. You can add in maintenance and repairs, for arguments sake, lets say over those 100yrs, a cost of €300,000 – even at that, it still only costs the State €3,300 per year for the construct, maintenance and repair of that house.

The problem today is that we have, as a matter of public policy, outsourced the construction of housing to the private market. It has failed to provide a sustainable housing provision for the population – in boom times too many houses were built in the wrong locations, in austere times not enough houses were built.

Housing is a social necessity first and foremost for any civilised and developed country. Housing however is now considered as a commodity to be bought and sold for profit or loss. It is a failed policy.

By no means am I against anyone wanting to buy and sell their property for profit, that is their business. But the business interests of an individual, a landlord, or property company are not in the interests of society as a whole. The State needs to intervene to provide an adequate supply of housing for the population first and foremost, in turn, providing for a sustainable market that does not extort those in private rental accommodation or drown in mortgage debt those that buy privately.

Fintan O’Toole explains it better than I ever could;

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...is-matter-of-ideology-not-economics-1.2397695


At least we are living in a society where these views are firmly in the minority and history is littered with failed socialist and communist regimes!

That's funny, since the only one advocating anything that has zero support across the developed world is yourself. The last time there was organized movement of people was when Hitler and Stalin were in charge.
 
The last time there was organized movement of people was when Hitler and Stalin were in charge.
Organised movement of people? Are you for real? People move home all of the time in the rental sector.

As for the references to Hitler and Stalin, you're getting a little desperate now!
 
There is no opportunity cost if the public policy, formed through democratic structures, can provide for housing that will, over time, return the cost of that housing to the State.
So there's no opportunity cost in spending money in one area instead of another, in spending money which would otherwise generate a return which could be spent helping the most vulnerable in society?
As I said; you don't understand opportunity cost.
 
People move home all of the time in the rental sector.

Yes, so what? Of their own volition, not because some bureaucrat arrives with a clipboard to 'assess' them and tell them to 'vacate'


Organised movement of people?

That is what you are proposing with your 5yr assessment plan. A bureaucrat from the Ministry of Housing Assessment arrives every 5yrs and determines whether or not the tenant should stay or 'vacate'. That is, in its most basic form, organizing the movement people by determining where they can or cannot, or should or should not live. That is what Hitler did, that is what Stalin did, albeit on far greater scales than you are perhaps proposing.
 
Fintan O’Toole explains it better than I ever could;
Where does he say that people who can afford to provide their own home should be given a council house?
Where does he say that those who can afford to pay market rates should get subsidised rents from the State?

His article is nonsense, in it he laughably implies that the reduction in the numbers of social houses built was a cause of the property bubble.
He also ignores the fact that it is desirable for people to provide their own homes if they can afford them and, due to that pesky free market capitalism, we are 3 to 4 times better off than in the 1950's and 60's so people can afford their own homes.

He's some neck talking about ideology blinding people.
 
So there's no opportunity cost in spending money in one area instead of another, in spending money which would otherwise generate a return which could be spent helping the most vulnerable in society?

You can juggle the balls all you want but its all meaningless until you actually provide concrete figures. As much as you can say it is an opportunity lost not to charge social housing tenants market rates, I can say that such a policy would no doubt induce wage demands from those on low and average incomes who live in social housing, in turn, reducing business competitiveness and employment opportunities.
After all, if they are paying market rates, they deserve a standard of accommodation that is available in the private sector for those market rates.
Even if market rates are only applied to those "who can well afford to pay", your own view is that the rent should be capped at market rates - how much is the opportunity cost for someone earning €160K, paying €2,000 market capped market rent, as per your example?

All swings and roundabouts.

The best way to deal with the housing crisis is to build more social housing (to which you agree), offer tax breaks, incentives for tenants of under-occupied housing (both in private and public housing, to which you appear to agree) to stimulate mobility. Introduce new legislation and regulations for private landlords that induces the concept of providing quality rental accommodation for competitive prices instead of expecting someone else to pay off mortgage to supplement pension.

Market prices for social housing, 5yr assessments, is tinkering, costly, ineffective and bound for the political and legal quagmire.
 
Where does he say that people who can afford to provide their own home should be given a council house?
Where does he say that those who can afford to pay market rates should get subsidised rents from the State?

He doesn't. Because in the real world, where occupants of social housing (like him) can afford to buy their own place, they go and buy, or rent their own place (like him). The amount of people living in 'subsidized' accommodation who can "well afford to pay for their own" is probably next to zero.
 
He also ignores the fact that it is desirable for people to provide their own homes if they can afford

That's the point, people cannot afford to buy or rent - or those who do are drowning in mortgage debt or extortionate rents. That is why we are having a housing crisis.

we are 3 to 4 times better off than in the 1950's and 60's so people can afford their own homes

Good God, after everything, after all this discussion, after all the headlines, the news, etc...etc... you are still blind to recognizing that a growing number of people CANNOT afford their own homes. That is the housing crisis, the people who CANNOT afford their own homes not the people who can afford their homes!