Key Post Bitcoin is a clearly identifiable economic bubble

tecate

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Perhaps if you read other parts of the site you would see we do and I started a thread yesterday.
At the point at which @CuriousGeorge11 made that comment on this thread yesterday, there was no such discussion on AAM. I know because I had checked. By and large there has been little in the way of discussion of issues related to shortcomings in the conventional monetary system on this board..
Bitcoin fanboys are like children when defending their own narrative while the facts are available for anyone to look up and read.
The posting style of you and others is akin to the school yard where it's an exchange of petty jibs and whataboutery and deflection utter juvenile stuff, example a post above " Bitcoin will be around longer than the Euro" utter nonsense.
My posting style, Paul? I agree it's quite different to yours. I don't go around accusing people of lying and when challenged, can't back up a word of that claim. I know that if I did accuse someone of lying and got it wrong, I'd have the manners to acknowledge the fact. But then, I do have a different posting style to yours. In recent exchanges on here, your focus was on complaining about the poster rather than discussing the actual topic itself.
Beyond that, it's very easy and convenient to throw around vague claims of 'deflection' and 'whataboutery' when by total coincidence, you're taking a diametrically opposing view.

example a post above " Bitcoin will be around longer than the Euro" utter nonsense.
So an innocent (and yet in no way outlandish) thought posted by @CuriousGeorge11 gets labelled as 'utter nonsense' by you - that's your articulate response on the matter and you'd have us believe that people who by total coincidence express an opposing view to the one you hold are the ones who are 'juvenile' and 'petty'. Makes perfect sense.
 
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Duke of Marmalade

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Duke, you can take the bad natured sentiment that went into your last two posts and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. On the one hand you're trying to suggest I'm clueless (with your arrogant condescending 'basic lesson') and on the other, you're saying that I purposefully didn't give a straight answer. Which is it Duke? Basic Lesson: It's neither.

What precisely has your 'lesson' to do with the point you were trying to make score? Your big phat claim was going to be 'but it wasn't priced in Bitcoin!' So what earthly difference does it make if a Latin country deals on a day to day basis in dollars or in Pesos, Soles Cordobas, Reais, etc.? For what its worth, the example I gave of being quoted in USD occurred in a country that on a day to day basis operates in its own currency.

So, going back to the point at hand, it makes no earthly difference what the unit of account is - that in no way, shape or form hinders someone making or taking payment in BTC. And some more info for you - there are very few countries that don't perform the vast majority of transactions in their own currencies on a day to day basis in Latin America. The notable exception is Venezuela. For some strange reason, I'm up to speed on this.
You were asked a str8 question. You didn’t give a str8 answer but riffed on a about unit of account and now you follow up with an incomprehensible diatribe. The "basic lesson" quip was just to test whether you knew that your unit of account answer was evasive. You did.
We also wanted to be sure that all these bitcoin transactions of yours are simply cultist posing. We are now sure.
 
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time to plan

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He erroneously talked about "unit of account" to avoid the str8 answer - they are priced in the local (Latin American) currency. So riddle me this; why would anybody being charged in a basket case currency ask to pay with a store of value, gigital gold no less? Because it's like blessing yourself or conspicuously holding your Rosary beads - it shows you're one of the cult.
That's why I couldn't be bothered to ask him to repeat his answer. When people are pricing their AirBNB properties in BTC, instead of taking payment in BTC at the current 'exchange rate' between BTC and the currency in which the property is priced, that will be something.
 

CuriousGeorge11

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I mentioned Bitcoin lasting longer than the Euro in jest however there is a war in Europe right now and the relative strength of the dollar despite the amount of dollars printed in the past number of years does lend some credence to the dollar milkshake theory

We also have to remember just how many currencies Germany has had in the past 100 years or so
 

Duke of Marmalade

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I use the word "cult" a lot in describing this bitcoin thing. I noticed the following in a link provided earlier.
The Guardian said:
When (Professor) Taleb published his 2021 paper, he received so much abuse that he had to lock his Twitter account. “I could not believe how psychopathic bitcoin people were,” says Taleb.
Can a niche cult of bitcoiners survive who insist on paying for everything with their digital gold? It certainly won't be the replacement for the US dollar as the World's reserve currency as a link from a cultist in this thread predicted.
Actually I think the cult tag is reserved for bitcoiners. Other crypto enthusiasts are more caught up with the technology (and of course making a quick Ponzi billion) than heralding the second coming for mankind.
 

tecate

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You were asked a str8 question. You didn’t give a str8 answer and now you follow up with an incomprehensible diatribe.
Firstly, your query was wholly and completely rhetorical. We know this because the discussion has been had many times. Here's a couple of examples:

By and large, the only way a currency can be a unit of account in any jurisdiction right now is in the same way as fiat currency is implemented - by force. There isn't anyone that isn't aware of that - but particularly you, when we have multiple instances of the conversation having already been had.

Because your mindset and view here is win/lose, black/white (and because your objection to Bitcoin is ideological and not pragmatic), you think that Bitcoin not being a unit of account means it has failed. That's nonsense. Bitcoin provides optionality. It's not a case of prevailing over the other. It's a question of choice. I'm not looking for fiat currency to be nuked. I am looking for the ability to use either/or - nor have I seen anyone else express a wish to see a direct and complete swap out in five years of discussion here. On that basis, Bitcoin not being unit of account makes no earthly difference.


clownery.png

That's a screenshot from the Muun Wallet interface. Any fiat currency can be added in the settings to provide a reference rate. Amount can be keyed in - in fiat or btc - and both prices are displayed dynamically in real time. There is no head scratching, delay, confusion brought about when paying in BTC with a fiat currency as the unit of account or reference rate. Anyone who suggests otherwise is telling porkies.

We just wanted to be sure that all these bitcoin transactions of yours are simply cultist posings. We are now sure.
That's why I couldn't be bothered to ask him to repeat his answer. When people are pricing their AirBNB properties in BTC, instead of taking payment in BTC at the current 'exchange rate' between BTC and the currency in which the property is priced, that will be something.
That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard! Imagine saying that payments don't count until such time as some government or other enforces Bitcoin as a unit of account in a country! Hilarious.

And as regards AirBnb, Brian Chesky (CEO) is far more open-minded on the subject than you are. He's on record as stating that "there's a revolution happening in crypto" and that the company will look to add it when regular people have a better understanding of it.


@Duke of Marmalade Imagine that the central banks are more open minded on this subject than you are? That's something. Here's the Fed with a recent paper examining the lightning network - and acknowledging that innovation in terms of Bitcoin payments. Amazing how much time everyone is putting in to something that is utterly worthless.
 
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Duke of Marmalade

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@tecate you are really getting silly now, not all posters keep a library of Marmalade Musings to hand.
I see an exit out of this rabbit hole. We now know that those transactions were not priced in bitcoin. It was a simple question, I wasn't quite sure what the answer would be. You explain that in whatever strange land you currently find yourself it is because the government forbid it. I'll take your word for it but as I am not equipped to dispute it - out of the rabbit hole I go.
 

tecate

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I mentioned Bitcoin lasting longer than the Euro in jest however there is a war in Europe right now and the relative strength of the dollar despite the amount of dollars printed in the past number of years does lend some credence to the dollar milkshake theory
You may have mentioned it in jest but it's not that long ago that there were people scrambling here on AAM to open accounts in Belgium, The Netherlands, France and Germany - in preparation for the breakup of the Euro. The real fear expressed at the time was that one morning we'd wake up and be told that our euro balances had been converted to (devalued) punt nua's. Numerous people on this board had gone to that trouble. So maybe your post was in jest but someone coming along and suggesting that it was 'nonsense' isn't credible either - given that backdrop and given that the Euro project certainly still has major challenges today.

Can a niche cult of bitcoiners survive who insist on paying for everything with their digital gold? It certainly won't be the replacement for the US dollar as the World's reserve currency as a link from a cultist in this thread predicted.

Imagine labeling - this guy - the manager of a $95 billion fund - pejoratively simply because his view doesn't align with yours. Does anyone see any mention of cryptocurrency or Bitcoin in his wikipedia profile?
 

Firefly

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You're making the point that nothing is happening - that nothing has changed and it certainly seems to me that you're suggesting that it's ridiculous to accept that Bitcoin is immature and in a developmental phase. I gave those examples as indicators that plenty of things have changed since you first trotted out that line. I NEVER mentioned the word exponential. The point is that any of the examples I provided you with would not have occurred back when you first raised this objection back in 2018.

From the Celsius thread Post 59 to Duke:

What you have never admitted is that since this became a topic of discussion here 5 years ago, everything about Bitcoin and its ecosystem has grown exponentially.
 

Duke of Marmalade

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Imagine labeling - this guy - the manager of a $95 billion fund - pejoratively simply because his view doesn't align with yours. Does anyone see any mention of cryptocurrency or Bitcoin in his wikipedia profile?
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I was not labelling the guy at all. I leave that to you - Nutty Roubini, Fax Machine Krugman, Commie Duke.

In the earlier link that you provided, he forecast:
Bitcoin will replace the US$ as the World's reserve currency.
No I do not share his view. Do you?
 

tecate

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From the Celsius thread Post 59 to Duke:
I was talking about this discussion right here right now. You and I were discussing Bitcoin payments. The statement that you've pulled from another thread was made in the context of Bitcoin generally. That statement of mine from that thread that .;. "everything about Bitcoin and its ecosystem has grown exponentially" stands. it doesn't mean that everyone taking part in this discussion is transacting in Bitcoin all day, every day.

In early 2018 when this discussion took off, there was little to no activity in terms of Bitcoin payments. There are posts here of mine acknowledging that Bitcoin wasn't at the races at that time re. payments - because it was technically limited. As I said at the time, it was pending the further development of Lightning Network. That work has been achieved - as acknowledged by the Fed in their paper that I've linked to above. That's a major change - and it's particularly relevant that you should note that change - given that your default position is to belittle the notion that Bitcoin and its ecosystem can be developed further.
 
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tecate

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I leave that to you - Nutty Roubini, Fax Machine Krugman, Commie Duke.
Over 5 years of exchange here, I've learnt what the rules of engagement are - so if you're dishing it out Duke - then I suggest you develop an appetite to take your own medicine.
 

tecate

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We now know that those transactions were not priced in bitcoin. It was a simple question, I wasn't quite sure what the answer would be. You explain that in whatever strange land you currently find yourself it is because the government forbid it.
That's a bare-faced lie. Over the course of 5 years of discussion, nobody has ever claimed that Bitcoin is a unit of account - in any part of the world. The discussions were had as per the links provided. What you set out was completely rhetorical.
 
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time to plan

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Firstly, your query was wholly and completely rhetorical. We know this because the discussion has been had many times. Here's a couple of examples:

By and large, the only way a currency can be a unit of account in any jurisdiction right now is in the same way as fiat currency is implemented - by force. There isn't anyone that isn't aware of that - but particularly you, when we have multiple instances of the conversation having already been had.

Because your mindset and view here is win/lose, black/white (and because your objection to Bitcoin is ideological and not pragmatic), you think that Bitcoin not being a unit of account means it has failed. That's nonsense. Bitcoin provides optionality. It's not a case of prevailing over the other. It's a question of choice. I'm not looking for fiat currency to be nuked. I am looking for the ability to use either/or - nor have I seen anyone else express a wish to see a direct and complete swap out in five years of discussion here. On that basis, Bitcoin not being unit of account makes no earthly difference.


View attachment 6385
That's a screenshot from the Muun Wallet interface. Any fiat currency can be added in the settings to provide a reference rate. Amount can be keyed in - in fiat or btc - and both prices are displayed dynamically in real time. There is no head scratching, delay, confusion brought about when paying in BTC with a fiat currency as the unit of account or reference rate. Anyone who suggests otherwise is telling porkies.



That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard! Imagine saying that payments don't count until such time as some government or other enforces Bitcoin as a unit of account in a country! Hilarious.

And as regards AirBnb, Brian Chesky (CEO) is far more open-minded on the subject than you are. He's on record as stating that "there's a revolution happening in crypto" and that the company will look to add it when regular people have a better understanding of it.


@Duke of Marmalade Imagine that the central banks are more open minded on this subject than you are? That's something. Here's the Fed with a recent paper examining the lightning network - and acknowledging that innovation in terms of Bitcoin payments. Amazing how much time everyone is putting in to something that is utterly worthless.
Any retailer could choose to price their product (e.g. AirBNB stay) in BTC, rather than pricing it in some mere fiat currency. But they don't seem to.
 

Firefly

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The statement that you've pulled from another thread was made in the context of Bitcoin generally.
You said "everything about Bitcoin and its ecosystem has grown exponentially"

Either that includes transactions in Bitcoin or not. Can you please confirm?


That statement of mine from that thread that .;. "everything about Bitcoin and its ecosystem has grown exponentially" stands. it doesn't mean that everyone taking part in this discussion is transacting in Bitcoin all day, every day.
I never said it did


given that your default position is to belittle the notion that Bitcoin and its ecosystem can be developed further.
Where have I belittled the notion that Bitcoin and its ecosystem can be developed further?
 

tecate

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You said "everything about Bitcoin and its ecosystem has grown exponentially"

Either that includes transactions in Bitcoin or not. Can you please confirm?
Delighted to have the opportunity to clarify, Firefly. :cool: - as I have above. 'Everything' about Bitcoin and its ecosystem has grown exponentially. I take the development of the tech such that it goes from 7 transactions/sec. to 1 million/sec. as part of that exponential development when it comes to payments. I take going from no payments to going to considerably more payments to be part of that exponential development. That was my point. I was not and I am not claiming that Bitcoin payments are pervasive. I am claiming that they have grown since early 2018 - along with practically every other facet of Bitcoin and its ecosystem.

I never said it did
I was spelling that out - to clarify - as I have just done above.

Where have I belittled the notion that Bitcoin and its ecosystem can be developed further?
->
Ah, but these things take time. Bitcoin is only doing the rounds for the last 13 years. Any decade now the penny will drop and we'll all be buying stuff with Bitcon.o
...and similar posts along those lines previously.
 

tecate

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Any retailer could choose to price their product (e.g. AirBNB stay) in BTC, rather than pricing it in some mere fiat currency. But they don't seem to.
Lets revisit the country in which the examples stemmed from. Bitcoin is not officially recognized by the state as a currency. How is a business going to remove sovereign currency pricing and replace it with Bitcoin pricing and not have a legal issue? Even if there wasn't a legal issue, just in case you have some bonkers notion about dual pricing, who would do that when there isn't any need and the conversion can be done automatically/seamlessly? You are creating a problem where there isn't one. Maybe you might care to take a look at that Muun Wallet screenshot above - to see that you're trying to invent a problem where none exists?
You haven't, but your heretical attitudes must be rooted out by the true believers!
lol Yes, I am going to take your view on that as gospel seeing as you're a neutral on the subject. You are a neutral on the subject, right?
 

time to plan

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Lets revisit the country in which the examples stemmed from. Bitcoin is not officially recognized by the state as a currency. How is a business going to remove sovereign currency pricing and replace it with Bitcoin pricing and not have a legal issue? Even if there wasn't a legal issue, just in case you have some bonkers notion about dual pricing, who would do that when there isn't any need and the conversion can be done automatically/seamlessly? You are creating a problem where there isn't one. Maybe you might care to take a look at that Muun Wallet screenshot above - to see that you're trying to invent a problem where none exists?

lol Yes, I am going to take your view on that as gospel seeing as you're a neutral on the subject. You are a neutral on the subject, right?
No, I am a heretic against the True Faith. I'm probably in the pay of the NWO or MSM.
 
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