Bitcoin has subjective value - intrinsic value is irrelevant

[Brendan Burgess]

This despite, it having been pointed out to you, that religion does have value.

What on earth are you on about? Where have I discussed the value or the non-value of religion? Please provide a link to the post.

Brendan

 

[TheBigShort]

What on earth are you on about? Where have I discussed the value or the non-value of religion? Please provide a link to the post.

Brendan

You have frequently referenced 'creationist' held beliefs as indicators of how clever people do stupid things, and in turn to show how bitcoin is worth nothing.
You have now referenced God;

It's not up to atheists to prove that Gods do not exist. Those who believe in Gods must prove that they exist.

...who tends to manifest in various guises through various religions.

My point is, that your interpretation of what value is, and how it is calculated in monetary terms is very narrow in scope.
The only calculation you provided it to include EPS and p/e ratios.
Accepting they are used throughout the financial industry, they by themselves are extremely narrow in scope and non-applicable to calculating the value of bitcoin, or the euro, or dollar for that matter.

If you want to use a method to calculating the value of bitcoin, use the same method that you could use to calculate the value of gold.
Or in fact, any other method that you wish to use.

In the end, value is the eye of the buyer and seller. Currently that value is reflected in monetary terms through crypto exchanges.

 

[newtothis]

At any given time, faith in that currency could collapse.

I've already make this point in another way: the value of a €50 note isn't in anything inherent in the piece of paper, it's down to the common acceptance of what its value is: faith, in other words. The piece of paper could be anything that has a limited supply and is difficult to fake, and the evidence is Bitcoin is better on both those counts than traditional currencies. Are limited supply and difficult to fake necessary and sufficient conditions for a currency? Who knows, but probably not as I believe counter examples exist; it looks to me that the only really defining attribute of a currency is that common acceptance one.

I’ve also already made the point that the price volatility of Bitcoin makes it pretty useless as a currency, and its current value (which is not zero!) is based on it having become a speculative investment. As that, it’s pretty much like any other speculative investment: if you think it’s overvalued, then you sell some if you have any or you can bet on it dropping in value, if undervalued, then you can buy some or bet the other way. It’s all down to opinions on what it should be worth and its likely value in the future.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

It’s all down to opinions on what it should be worth and its likely value in the future.

You have hit the nail on the head there. The current price is purely speculation as to "what it should be worth and its likely value". Brendan is asking for a rational assessment of what it should be worth and its likely value not the price of current speculation in that regard.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

You have frequently referenced 'creationist' held beliefs as indicators of how clever people do stupid things

Sorry Shortied. You attributed a very specific comment to me:

You keep bringing up religion as a basis upon which to show that bitcoin has no value.

This despite, it having been pointed out to you, that religion does have value.

You are attributing comments to me that I simply did not make. As you seem to have difficulty understanding them, let me make them again:

1) A theist must prove that God exists. In the same way someone who claims that Bitcoin is worth $9,000 must show how they arrive at that figure. Many theologians have put forward their proofs that God exists. No one has yet put forward an argument that Bitcoin has any financial value.

It is not up to an atheist to prove that God does not exist. It's not possible to prove the non-existence of something. Likewise it is not up to the sceptics to prove that Bitcoin has no value.

2) The point about Creationism is that clever people believe stupid things. Some of the people who believe Bitcoin has value presumably must be clever. I simply can't understand how someone believes in Creationism or how clever people believe that Bitcoin has value.

3) I have made no comment at all on whether religion has value or not.

Brendan

 

[ant dee]

You have hit the nail on the head there. The current price is purely speculation as to "what it should be worth and its likely value". Brendan is asking for a rational assessment of what it should be worth and its likely value not the price of current speculation in that regard.

The current price might also be speculating that in the not-so-distant future, Bitcoin will evolve and end up being the 5% of the world's transactions, like you referenced from investopedia in the past.

 

[newtothis]

1) A theist must prove that God exists. In the same way someone who claims that Bitcoin is worth $9,000 must show how they arrive at that figure.

No they don't! That's what the value is! It's determined by the market, not established by some set of rules.

Likewise it is not up to the sceptics to prove that Bitcoin has no value.

So, let me get this right:

- we have an observable fact: Bitcoin has a value
- it's required for those who believe it has a value to provide evidence that it has that value (i.e. that the observable fact is in fact reality?)
- it's not required for those who believe it has no value to provide any evidence as to why they think that, despite evidence to the contrary (e.g. its current value, its useage as a currency)
- it's not required for anyone to provide proof that anything else has the value it does (any other currency, gold, artwork, you name it).

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi newtothis

Your thinking is very muddled.

The observable fact is that Bitcoin has a price which is $8,500. It's value or worth is zero until someone shows a value to the contrary.

If you cannot distinguish between value and price, then the rest of your arguments are built of a completely false foundation.

If you can't distinguish between gold and Bitcoin, then you will not be able to make any reasoned arguments.

If you can't distinguish between a work of art and Bitcoin, likewise you will not be able to make any progress.

If you put Bitcoin or the Own Coin or the Marmalade Coin on a par with the dollar or the euro, then you will not make any progress.

Brendan

 

[TheBigShort]

You are attributing comments to me that I simply did not make.

Brendan, I accept you made no specific remarks to any specific religious organisation and I retract any comments that said you did.

No one has yet put forward an argument that Bitcoin has any financial value.

Plenty have. They have not convinced you that bitcoin has financial value, but that is wholly different to declaring it has no value at all.
Clearly, lots of people consider it to have some value, even if its just speculative value. This is evident in its price fluctuation.

The point about Creationism is that clever people believe stupid things.

To you (and me) it is stupid. That does not mean that therefore it has no value.

I simply can't understand how someone believes in Creationism or how clever people believe that Bitcoin has value.

But what you are saying is that those who share creationist views, that those views have no value?
I would beg to differ. Creationist baptist churches (a manifestation of those views congregating together) have property, bank accounts etc all of which hold value.

 

[TheBigShort]

You have hit the nail on the head there. The current price is purely speculation as to "what it should be worth and its likely value". Brendan is asking for a rational assessment of what it should be worth and its likely value not the price of current speculation in that regard.

Im reading about Dropbox IPO. Apparently this company has never made a profit. Its market value is $10-12bn.
What is the 'rational assessment' of a loss-making company having a market value of $10-12bn?
Is this price speculative in any way? If so, does that mean its worthless? After all, from what I understand about Dropbox, its just a space for storing and managing files etc.

 

[newtothis]

Your thinking is very muddled.

The observable fact is that Bitcoin has a price which is $8,500. It's value or worth is zero until someone shows a value to the contrary.

On the contrary, I think it’s you who has the muddled thinking, to the extent you don’t accept reality. The fact that something is priced at a particular point is by definition the thing that establishes it has a value.

If you cannot distinguish between value and price, then the rest of your arguments are built of a completely false foundation.

Of course I can distinguish between them! I’m using the words according to their meaning. The value of something is amount of money that someone is prepared to pay for it. I might believe that value to be crazy, whether it’s Bitcoin or a Gucci handbag in Brown Thomas, but that’s irrelevant; it doesn’t change the fact that’s what it is worth: if it wasn’t people wouldn’t pay the price they do. My opinion may be different, as yours clearly is, but that’s all it is: an opinion.

What do you think value means? (Sorry, I forgot, you’re refusing to answer that question)

If you can't distinguish between gold and Bitcoin, then you will not be able to make any reasoned arguments.

Of course I can distinguish between them; all I said was the current market for Bitcoin was similar to that for any other speculative investment. My guess is that people who buy gold for an investment don’t either plan to turn it into jewellery or use it to plate something in an industrial setting but are happy to leave it untouched in a bank vault somewhere. That is, they’re not buying it for any practical use, but in the hope its value will increase. Saying an aspect of something is like an aspect of something else is not equating the two.

If you can't distinguish between a work of art and Bitcoin, likewise you will not be able to make any progress.

Same argument: I fear it is you who are failing to make progress.

If you put Bitcoin or the Own Coin or the Marmalade Coin on a par with the dollar or the euro, then you will not make any progress.

I’ve already made the point that you can use anything as a currency provided you can get enough people to accept it as such. You don’t seem to be making any progress in accepting that.