Bitcoin ETF

DublinHead54

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It looks like we are going to see approval for a Bitcoin ETF in the short to medium term. Does this finally cement Bitcoin as an investment product rather than a currency? It is going to be interesting how this plays out both in terms of the price impact and the impact to broader crypto markets and crypto exchanges.

In the short term I think it will drive the price up which we can already see over the last week, but long term if more of the currency is locked up to support the ETF resulting in less circulating supply we could see less volatility / growth. Additionally, this may dry up liquidity in crypto exchanges etc.

Overall I think it is bad for exchanges that operate in the US and derive revenue from trading fees from trading.
 
It looks like we are going to see approval for a Bitcoin ETF in the short to medium term.
Approval from whom?
Does this finally cement Bitcoin as an investment product rather than a currency?
I don't think so. Just because you can invest in something doesn't mean that you should or that it's a good idea. Just because something is the basis for an ETF doesn't give it some sort of legitimacy. There are ETFs for all sorts of crazy stuff.

10. Inspire International ETF (NYSE:WWJD)

Inspire International ETF (NYSE:WWJD), whose ticker symbol WWJD stands for “What Would Jesus_ Do,” believes in investing in companies that are aligned with biblical values. Inspire International ETF (NYSE:WWJD) invests in companies that are “blessing” to their communities and that adhere to “faith.” Inspire International ETF (NYSE:WWJD) assigns a score to its portfolio companies on a scale of -100 to +100. The companies are assigned a score on this scale based on their alignment with biblical values. The higher the score the more the company in question is aligned with faith-based values.

Inspire International ETF (NYSE:WWJD) mostly provides exposure to non-US companies. The biggest holding of Inspire International ETF (NYSE:WWJD) is Japan-based oil company INPEX Corporation.
And, arguably, bitcoin isn't even really a currency except in very limited circumstances. The common HODL strategy doesn't really encourage liquidity needed for use as a currency.
And let's not talk about the several high profile crypto related scandals in recent years, or a particular ongoing trial...

Cue 50 pages of bickering about crypto...
 
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It looks like we are going to see approval for a Bitcoin ETF in the short to medium term. Does this finally cement Bitcoin as an investment product rather than a currency? It is going to be interesting how this plays out both in terms of the price impact and the impact to broader crypto markets and crypto exchanges.
ETF approval over-hyped although it looks like it's inevitable. I'd say come back in eighteen months and review then. In reality, it will be a slow burner. I'm looking forward to it broadening the market cap - which eventually will lead to less unit price volatility.
I don't think that it has to be black/white. It can play a role in those few use cases. Over the longer run, broader market cap and less volatility assist with day to day transactional use. Ongoing acceptance in the conventional finance world (that this approval will contribute towards) will assist in this respect also.

Overall I think it is bad for exchanges that operate in the US and derive revenue from trading fees from trading.
Perhaps it will be. ETF approval aside, so long as Elizabeth Warren is directing policy behind the scenes relative to digital assets and financial markets, the exchange business is already dead in the water in the US (although it won't always be like that). However, the US is not the only game in town. This is a world-wide asset. Asia likely to take on greater relevance in the next wave of adoption.

Approval from whom?
The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC).

Approval from whom?

I don't think so. Just because you can invest in something doesn't mean that you should or that it's a good idea. Just because something is the basis for an ETF doesn't give it some sort of legitimacy. There are ETFs for all sorts of crazy stuff.
Personally, I'm not looking for any validation of bitcoin from conventional finance. However, I disagree that this milestone (if/when it comes) doesn't add perceived 'legitimacy' for those that operate in conventional finance relative to bitcoin. Nothing exists in a vacuum. As we go forward, there will be a continued blurring of the lines between bitcoin, "crypto" and conventional finance.

And, arguably, bitcoin isn't even really a currency except in very limited circumstances. .
Currently limited by the number of folks with digital wallets but that will continue to change over time. :)
And let's not talk about the several high profile crypto related scandals in recent years, or a particular ongoing trial...

You mean the high profile scandals related to centralized entities with little to do with bitcoin itself? In the case of FTX, we're talking about a garden variety fraud like Enron, Madoff...although maybe the latter didn't have 33% of Capitol Hill politicians taking money from that fraudster, and continue to refuse to give that $ back. FTX was spending more time with regulators (the SEC and CFTC) than any other entity in the space. In the case of the latter, they are reported to have spent 1,000s of hours working with them.

These failures are failures of the conventional system. Said failures don't blemish bitcoin itself.
 
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Absolutely not.

If I can get an ETF approved for hot air or tulips or NFTs, it does not make it an investment product.

It is still hot air, tulips, or NFTs.

Brendan

Can you get an ETF for hot air approved?

A Bitcoin ETF would be listed on regulated exchanges, have an ISIN, have a KIID/PID/Prospectus. It will look no different to any other ETF on paper. It will be sold as an investment product.

The debate will be its value as an investment product, but it will be an investment product.
 
The debate will be its value as an investment product, but it will be an investment product.
Just so that there's no confusion, from day 1 of debate here, it's been about all use cases. Commentary from its founder(s) demonstrate that store of value was recognized as a characteristic of the asset from the outset. Of course, should one centralized entity hold too much of said asset, that's a risk factor...but it was one that would have always have had to be navigated.
 
Just so that there's no confusion, from day 1 of debate here, it's been about all use cases. Commentary from its founder(s) demonstrate that store of value was recognized as a characteristic of the asset from the outset. Of course, should one centralized entity hold too much of said asset, that's a risk factor...but it was one that would have always have had to be navigated.
NFTs are a store of value too. Just that, in most cases, the value is zero.
 
NFTs are a store of value too. Just that, in most cases, the value is zero.
I'm not really sure why you've branched off into NFTs. We've done the store of value debate to death. To your point, you could also spin up ClubMan Bitcoin using exactly the same source code and yet it won't go anywhere near matching actual Bitcoin as a store of value. The same with your NFT (although it does seem like NFTs are finding some use cases now, beyond the JPEG nonsense they started off with).

I wanted to point out that any ETF approval here doesn't represent a pivot in this debate - nothing more than that.
 
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I'll probably invest in it when it is approved and goes live.

I'm sure the worlds largest asset manager isn't pursuing a Bitcoin ETF for a few 'cultists'
 
I'm sure the worlds largest asset manager isn't pursuing a Bitcoin ETF for a few 'cultists'
Well of course not. Cultists wouldn't touch it with a barge pole - native bitcoin for them. The vast majority of bitcoin holders do not actually have the faith - they wanna get RICH; couldn't give a damn even if an evil central bank packaged a bitcoin for them.
 
I'm sure you are right.

They are doing it as a service to mankind and not interested in any profits they make from cultists.

Brendan

Of course they are Brendan, that is obvious but you missed my point. My point was that BlackRock has clearly identified there is significant interest from their customers for a Bitcoin ETF to generate revenue for BLK.

They are not creating it for a small subset of people, and as @Duke of Marmalade pointed out the 'cultists' won't touch it.

So like it or not, Bitcoin is going to become an easily accessible investment product for individuals, pension funds, asset managers etc.
 
My point was that BlackRock has clearly identified there is significant interest from their customers for a Bitcoin ETF to generate revenue for BLK.
Yeah pension funds and money market funds will slowly take this up. Just think Duke, a year or two from now your pension will have a tiny sliver of BTC. :D
 
So like it or not, Bitcoin is going to become an easily accessible investment product for individuals, pension funds, asset managers etc.
Yes, but let's not lose the run of ourselves. I accept that a parallel cult of smart asses has grown up (motivated by fees of course). Best exemplified by Fidelity Digital Assets. We can be sure that Fidelity have not suddenly decided that the Fed is Satan's vicar on earth. This is actually a much more cynical and dangerous cult. They don't believe in anything but the bottom line. One branch will extol the virtues of ESG and another will point to the great opportunities in fossil fuels. If there are punters willing to pay for it we will have a branch to serve them.
I first bumped into FDA in a pseudo academic tract by Ria Bhutorria a few years ago (courtesy of @tecate). I saw the exact same hubris that precipitated the sub prime fiasco. Fancy math to make a case for btc's diversification benefits. Doesn't matter that the math was wrong, there is always a gullible constituency who will lap this sort of stuff up.
 
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Yes, but let's not lose the run of ourselves. I accept that a parallel cult of smart asses has grown up (motivated by fees of course). Best exemplified by Fidelity Digital Assets. We can be sure that Fidelity have not suddenly decided that the Fed is Satan's vicar on earth. This is actually a much more cynical and dangerous cult. They don't believe in anything but the bottom line. One branch will extol the virtues of ESG and another will point to the great opportunities in fossil fuels. If there are punters willing to pay for it we will have a branch to serve them.
I first bumped into FDA in a pseudo academic tract by Ria Bhutorria a few years ago (courtesy of @tecate). I saw the exact same hubris that precipitated the sub prime fiasco. Fancy math to make a case for btc's diversification benefits. Doesn't matter that the math was wrong, there is always a gullible constituency who will lap this sort of stuff up.

I'm not sure what your point is, BlackRock is now a cult? Capitalism is bad? Every for profit firm only care about the bottom line, despite their corporate motto's......that is capitalism. However, what does any of this have to do with a Bitcoin ETF?

The point of this thread was Bitcoin becoming readily available to the traditional financial markets via the ETF. We didn't even get past the first page before you derailed it.

Probably best to just close this thread and avoid 50 pages of hubris?
 
The pension fund and money market guys are 'gullible'? First us retail plebs and now them. What is the world coming to Duke...
Amazing how many of these guys fell for the AAA sub primes. Fidelity know there is a constituency who are pure suckers for big words like diversification and some pseudo math. You won't catch Mr or Ms Fidelity with any bitcoin in their personal portfolio.
 
I'm not sure what your point is, BlackRock is now a cult?
My bad. Cults actually believe in something. These keys serve whatever beliefs they might make a few bob out of.
Capitalism is bad? Every for profit firm only care about the bottom line
The clue is in the definition.
, despite their corporate motto's......that is capitalism. However, what does any of this have to do with a Bitcoin ETF?
Don't get your point. I am sure Bitcoin ETFs are of themselves innocent, but surely it is on topic to comment on the reasons why the likes of these guys are introducing Bitcoin ETF.
The point of this thread was Bitcoin becoming readily available to the traditional financial markets via the ETF. We didn't even get past the first page before you derailed it.
Sorry for not hailing this as the breakthrough we have all been waiting for.
Probably best to just close this thread and avoid 50 pages of hubris?
Bitcoin ETF is hubris on steroids.
 
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