Bin charges - bill for unoccupied property & bins never used

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santiago

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I've just received a bill dated 3rd August from Dublin City Council for bin charges. The bill is to 'the occupiers' and for billing period Jan-Mar 2006. On it are "balance carried forward from previous bill" and a standing charge for Jan-Mar. There's also a form listing bin lifts where they claim the bin was collected (once) in Jan.

I bought the house almost a year ago. It's not occupied - I'm just (very slowly) renovating it. I've NEVER used the bins in all this time, and they couldn't even have been collected without my intending it or used by someone else, as they're kept in the back garden which is only accessible throught the house. I've also NEVER received a bill before.

Can anyone tell me:
(1) Are Dublin City Council refuse bills normally this late - i.e. bill in Aug for Jan-Mar???
(2) How do they record bin lifts? I can only assume that someone was too lazy to keep a proper record and just ticked bins for the whole road on the day in question - which would have been the first collection of the new year. (And maybe other days in view of the "balance from previous bills" that was on this bill; there were no details of what that was made up of.)

Thanks.
 
I thought all bins in DCC had a barcode which is read and recorded electronically when the bin is lifted? They are small and pin in colour and about halfway down the front of the bin. AFAIK, this system was introduced from the start of 2006.
 
All bins are 'chipped ' with a unique code so it had to be your bin that was lifted the chip is visible if you turn your bin upside down !and look just below the lid !
 
I rang them today (spent half the day on hold, going from person to person). Yes, they are chipped.
It seems that basically when the vendor sold me the house and closed his account, they automatically opened one up for 'the occupier' (without my ever asking for it or using it) and by putting phantom binlifts on it they've made me eligible for usage fees.
I got speaking to the guy who has the actual bin lift records (chip records) and he confirms that bin was never lifted. The "binlift" which is in the DCC accounts records must have been input manually - to keep the bin on the system??? The date put in wasn't even a binday! In fairness, the bill sent to me didn't include a lift fee for that "binlift", but because it then looked like there had been a binlift, I was charged standing fees because it looked like I was using the service.

Now waiting for a supervisor to see can anything be done about it.:rolleyes:
 
I wonder will it be like the gas or esb standing charge. You're paying for the facility of being able to use the service (have your bins collected), whether or not you actually use the service at all.
 
Possibly, but with gas or ESB you open an account with them - i.e. you say "I'd like the opportunity to avail of this service." In this case they opened an account for 'the occupiers' (unasked) when the previous owner closed his account, and they created activity on it.

I didn't ask for the service, don't want it, haven't used it, and have no intention of paying for it.
 
santiago - as far as I remember the charges are service charges not bin charges, so the standing charge includes services other than emptying bins. This essentially makes it a 'rate' on a property.

It would be worth checking that detail out.

z
 
You mean water, for example?

I don't think so. The tear-off payment part at the bottom of my form says "Environmental Waste Charge 2006", and the standing charge bit says "This charge represents Dublin City Council's fixed costs associated with delivering the waste collection service."
 
Standing charge probably includes supplying you with the bin which you have ! all you need to do now is fill and pay to have it emptied !!
 
Hi Guys

I’m resurrecting this thread because I’m in a similar situation and need opinions.

I bought a house in Bray last year with my better half. It’s the part of Bray that falls under the control of Dun Laoghire Rathdown CoCo. We’ve been living here since. We use the disposable Greenstar bags for our household waste and recycle everything else in ballyogan. We never set up and account with DLRCOCO for refuse collection. However, a couple of weeks ago I got a statement on an account in the names of myself and my better half, accounting for a charge of 80 euros. I wrote a letter to the person named as the sender and informed them I that I have no a/c with them, I was never approached to open an a/c and won’t ever have an a/c and that I wanted the a/c closed immediately.

I got a reply today telling me the 80 euros is a standard charge for all houses including “opt outs” (I never opted in!) and contributed towards general refuse collection including recycling in Ballyogan.

First I’ve heard of this. On my statement its listed as an “Annual Charge” nothing about the laudable benefits of pay it though.

I’ve no problem paying the money if this is legal but I’m mystified as to how it can be legal to open an a/c in a persons name who doesn’t want it without them signing anything and then charging them money. The 80 euros they are looking for comes under the a/c, and so is not a tax or a rate as such, but a fee.

They offered to close the account of I provide them with documented proof that I’m having all my waste collected by another company. This is another nonsense, as I have no obligation to prove anything to them.

Has anybody been through this and if so what was the outcome. My next letter to them will be one requesting the specific legislation that allows DLRcoco to open and account in my name with my knowledge than the charge me money for a service which I didn’t request and never use. But I’d like to hear other people’s opinions.
 
Can report similar story. Bought house in Oct 06. Not living there and not availing of refuse collection service. Yet there is an account in my name and i have been billed for standard charges. I contested this bill, told DLRCOCO that i never opened the account and in fact won't ever require it as Panda private waste collection services operate in the area and appear to offer more competitive rates. I have been advised that i am obliged to be a paying account holder until i opt for another service. I can declare the house to be vacant and so be exempt from charges but this declaration must be witnessed by a solicitor of commisioner of oaths i am awaiting a response from my solicitor on this but if i incur a charge for having the declaration signed it may not be worth my while...
It does seem quite unfair that you become an account holder without ever opting for the service but DLRCOCO don't recognise this.
 
Peachie said:
I have been advised that i am obliged to be a paying account holder until i opt for another service.
Click to expand...

Ask them to quote you the legal basis for this - precise citation of act and section, or of regulations. Unless DLRCC has made bye-laws to cover this, they're wrong in law (but there is a possibility there are bye-laws - as I say, call them on it).

There are no other provisions which require a householder to be a customer of a waste service they don't use. You are required to deal with your waste responsibly, but provided you can show that you do dispose of it responsibly - whether from that address or another - the local authority has no business requiring you to be their customer. If, as in the case of Peachie, you're currently domiciled somewhere else, or if you're taking your own waste to a suitable facility, or you're a customer of someone else, all you need do is show current bills or receipts at the relevant address, or gate fee receipts.

Mouldy, waste charges are a service charge for a service you receive, so equally the muppet in DLRCC who told you the charge is for Ballyogan is wrong.

I have a fairly recent professional background in this whole area, and am very confident that there is no primary or secondary legislation to allow the levying of fixed fees on householders not availing of a waste service. Only if there are enabling bye laws (and I'd be very surprised if there are) can the charge possibly be remotely legal; in fact even if there are, I'm very dubious.

Please keep us updated on this... particularly if they give you a citation, because I'd love to know how they think they can justify themselves. :mad:
 
OK, so last August I started this thread because I'd been charged for a bin service I hadn't signed up for, don't want, and have never used. After being passed from pillar to post, one of the people I spoke to told me to put it in writing in an email to her and she'd sort it.

Unfortunately, all she seems to have sorted is to put my name on the account instead of 'the occupier'!

Now I've got another bill - marked for the billing period Jan-Mar 2007. This is only the second bill I've ever received for this property, the first being the one received in August 2006 for the billing period Jan-Mar 2006. However, it refers to a 'balance from previous bill' which is not the balance on the Jan-Mar 2006 bill. Instead, it reads as though it would have been the balance if they had issued me with Apr-Jun, Jul-Sep and Oct-Dec bills, with an additional quarterly charge each time.
I've still never used the service.

(1) Does anyone actually get quarterly waste collection bills from Dublin City Council, or is it their standard practice to just bill annually while phrasing their bills as though they'd sent out previous ones on a quarterly basis in between?

(2) Peachie - or anyone else with a vacant house - did you ever get the council to accept they were being unreasonable?
 
Okay, I’m back with my next instalment.

I wrote to dlrcoco to ask for legislative proof for 3 core issues-

  • The right of DLRcoco to open an account I my name without my knowledge when I do not use their service and to charge me for it.
  • The right of dlrcoco to force me to pay a recycling levy as part of said account.
  • The right of dlrcoco to expect me to prove my “innocence” by providing proof of how I dispose of my refuse with another provider.
The reply (which was more of a rant, it has to be said) detailed the following 2 acts

1996 Waste Management Act (section 75)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1996/en/act/pub/0010/print.html


The Protection of the environment act 2003 Section 52

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0027/sec0052.html#partiii-sec52

I’ve read though these and cannot find anything about the legality of the points above. I can only see that the legislation entitles local authorities for charge householders for disposing of their waste. Duh.

However I am now in a situation where I need to call their bluff, so to speak and be ready for a court case, or to pay the 80 euros then find a statutory body to report them to for illegally opening an account in my name.

Can anybody tell me where I would make a report such as this? If it makes it easier, imagine a phone or cable company try to bill you for a service you don’t subscribe to and then persisted in trying to charge you. The principal offence would have been opening an account in your name without your knowledge.

I would like to take proper legal advice on this. Can a regular solicitor give advice on this type of legislation?

Suggestions?
 
Actually, Mouldy, because the local authorities also have enforcement responsibilities and authority in relation to waste management, they are reasonably entitled to ask you to show that you deal with your waste responsibly. This isn't to do with their waste collection function: it's specifically their statutory responsibility under the waste management acts. I know it may be aggravating to be asked to provide proof, but a few Greenstar bag receipts is all that's needed.

While it may be irritating (ok, is irritating you a lot! ;)), the background to the legislation and the statutory responsibility lies in that for a long time no-one had sufficient power, information or resources to tackle illegal dumping - whether large scale commercial illegal dumping, or large numbers of people fly-tipping and littering (by littering, I don't mean dropping a wrapper on the street - not that I approve of that either - but rather, the people who take out their household rubbish to dump in laneways, in watercourses, in alleys...).

Seriously, they can't charge you for something you don't use; however, the enforcement function of DLRCC is entitled to know that you are dealing responsibly with your waste. Can't quote chapter and verse and *really* can't be bothered looking up the acts :p, but it's there.

Regarding the largely separate matter of their opening an account in your name without your consent - might be a matter for the data protection commissioner?

Take deep breaths, and don't let irritations put up your blood-pressure. :eek:It's not worth it!
 
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