BER rated windows

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gooner

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I was a the ideal homes expo in Derry Yesterday and they had the usual stuff,wood pellet,solar,insulation,etc.

There were also a few window suppliers there,so I had a look around and asked a few questions.I spoke with one company who mainly deal in uPVC,but now are also supplying wooden and aluclad.I asked him a few questions about u-ratings of the uPVC windows,asking for the overall u-value of the complete unit.Can't remember the exact figure,but he said that they now only offer one type of uPVC window to the south,an A rated window.He gave me the brochure pointing out that the rating cert was on the back.So when I got home I had a look.I am very sus about the cert (British cert),as the company it's made out to doesn't show up on any search on the net at all and the reg no at the bottom is "xyz".So I reckon they just robbed it and made it up.Could be wrong but it looks very sus.There was another well known nationwide supplier/manufacturer of windows there also and I picked up all their brochures,etc.Not one mention of u-values of the frames or complete units,only glass u-values mentioned.

So this begs me to ask a few questions and comments that hopefully some of you may be able to answer,as I think windows are going to be a minefield once the new regs come in.

1. What onus will be is on the window manfacurers/suppliers to have their windows assesed and what onus will be on them to give the customer the info on the rating of their windows?

2. Is there anything to stop them from making up bogus rating stickers for their windows?

3. I know its straight forward to rate a TV or other electrical product,as they usually don't change until a new model comes out.With windows there are a few things that probably won't change on the window type,like the material used,the spacing between the glass.But am I right in saying that the style chosen and the size of the window will affect it's rating.So therefor as most windows are custom made,will the manufacturer/supplier have to rate every single window that leaves the factory?

4. Does the supplier/manufacturer really need to rate the window and are they obliged to provide you with a cert that can be shown to the BER accesor when they are rating the overall house.
 
There is nowhere in Ireland for testing windows or doors yet. They can be tested in England with the British Fenestration Rating Council (bfrc), but will that be an acceptable rating here in Ireland now that we are gone more European and look for EN on ratings as opposed to BS.

I rang SEI last year and they could not tell me if the bfrc rating would be acceptable here or not. I have spoken to a BER assessor who told me that when they are assessing a house they key in the type of window i.e. pvc or timber and the type of glass used i.e. standard d/g or type of "low-e" and this gives the rating for them windows.

It is something that I am very interested in also.
 
Not many Irish window companies seem to have looked into the whole rating system of windows yet.

Take a look at [broken link removed]
 
gooner said:
1. What onus will be is on the window manfacurers/suppliers to have their windows assesed and what onus will be on them to give the customer the info on the rating of their windows?
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Tbh, I'm not aware of any 'requirement' - at the moment, it's informational, or for selling purposes only. I'm open to correction on this.
2. Is there anything to stop them from making up bogus rating stickers for their windows?
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No - no more than there is anything to stop you driving your car with an out of date tax disc, NCT disc, etc.

3. I know its straight forward to rate a TV or other electrical product,as they usually don't change until a new model comes out.With windows there are a few things that probably won't change on the window type,like the material used,the spacing between the glass.But am I right in saying that the style chosen and the size of the window will affect it's rating.So therefor as most windows are custom made,will the manufacturer/supplier have to rate every single window that leaves the factory?
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Actually, the glass type, thickness and interstitial spacing DO vary, as does the gas type within the space, and all affect the performance. For that reason, you will not get a cert for every window - it's an impossibility - you'd have to pay them to certify each individual window.
4. Does the supplier/manufacturer really need to rate the window and are they obliged to provide you with a cert that can be shown to the BER accesor when they are rating the overall house.
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See point 1.
 
Just an update, Its not a BER rated window that you are looking for at all, a BER applies to the whole of the house its a WER window that you want. Window Energy Rating. At present when people speak about a b & c's it is about the Double Glazed Unit and not the whole window (frame & Glass). I attended a seminar in Dublin Last month with SEI, National Standards, British Fenestration Ratings Council, Simon Coveney & Pilkington Glass etc.

There are no standards in Ireland as of yet, but within the next few months there will be and it will be based mostly on the british standards. Nobody is going to have windows tested until it is sorted - not much point is spending money on a test which will give you a british cert when shortly you will have a proper Irish one.

Ken101 is correct in his posting.
 
Thanks for the update NHG.

Is this new WER (A) a compulsory rating where by all the manufacturers/suppliers of windows have to go through the process of having their windows tested,or (B) will it be a voluntary thing where the manufactuers/suppliers with the best windows will have theirs tested and the ones that know they won't get a good rating won't bother at all with it?

If it is (A) then that will be a great system.

If it is (B) then it will take years to come in,as there will be no real onus on most of the window companies to bother with it until the majority of customers start to buy their windows based partly or wholely on the performance.

Who will issue and regulate WER ?

Interesting to see that the Pilkington are in on it.But how are the frame manufactures/supliers taking it,any of them in on it?

Please keep us up to date on developments.
 
Its B - and all of the top Frame Manufacturers are all for it. Its the Hardwood Joinery end of the market that I was there for not the PVC market. I won't name the ones who were there in case I miss out on anyone.

They need to have it in order to be abe to compete at the top level, the ones that don't go for it - well that will say enough about their product anyway...

I am sure BFRC will manage it along with Irish Aggrement Board.

I would be hoping that before the end of 2008 that it will be sorted.
 
Thanks NHG for clearing up my questions.I agree that it will be the best performers that will run with it and the not so good will try to sell their wares as they currently do.When you say that you were there for the timber windows side of things,I take it that you are involved at this end.Would be interested to know if the PVC end was represented at all.I have seen A rated uPVC windows on the web,granted they were all by foreign companies and not Irish/British.I hope that all companies get involved and that it will be well advertised to the public,so as they are all aware of it.If the customers are demanding this cert,then most of the window companies will get involved.Even the ones with poor performing windows will look to manufacture/source better windows,as seems to be the case on the continent,where they have even increased the performance of uPVC frames.What about doors,will the system also cover external doors?
 
Yes, the PVC side of the things were very well represented, actually I was one of the only ones on the hardwood window side of things as it was by invitation and it was The Promac Group who organised the whole event whom sell machinery to the PVC manufacturers. It was an excellent seminar where everyone had a chance to give their tuppence. I look forward to the follow up on it.

All manufacturers who were there were very interested and anxious to have Irish Standards and Irish Certification. The idea is to have labels something like the washing machine rating labels, the labels will be the simular to England but will have Ireland on them with our own Irish logo.

I will update when I have further information.
 
NHG, I have just thought on something.Will there be anything to stop window manufactrurers/suppliers from having one of their range of windows tested and then sticking that cert onto all their windows even their poorer performing ranges.For example company xyz have all their range tested and only their alu-clad ones make an A rating and their wooden a B and their upvc a C.Will there be something in place to stop this company from simply informing the potential customer that their upvc windows are A rated and put the A rated sticker on them.Or if they had 2 different ranges of upvc,but very little difference in appearance,but they have different energy ratings,they possibly could put the better rating sticker on the poorer range also.Another possibilty is that a company could make their own fake certs.

Now I am not assuming that this practise would be widespread,but unless it will be well regulated,then it is open to abuse.

So I'm curious to know what measures will be in place to protect the consumer and the reputable manufaturers/suppliers from this sort of practise?
 
Exactly, thats the stuff that's going to have to be sorted and that's why all the different bodies are involved in the setting up of the system.
 
hi

i have read with great intrest the issues you have raised

i can inform you that each window type has to be assessed on its own merit. e.g. casement,tilt+turn,sash

if you want a list of genuine rated suppliers go to the bfrc web site only they can upload the names of the companies that have achieved this award.

there are a couple of irish companies that have achieved the rating.

the size of the window dose not affect the rating.

the rating is on the whole window not just the glass.

the more glass you have the better the rating e.g. smaller frame size.

the rating on the window will affect the overall rating on your house.

regards
 
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