"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

[WolfeTone]

It absolutely beggars belief that, for example, the killers of Mountbatten and the "heroes" of Warrenpoint can now appear with impunity at SF commemorations and make a few bob out of writing their books. Possibly even stand for election in West Belfast. This must be a hoax.

Thomas McMahon was convicted and given a life sentence for the attack on Mountbatten following an investigation into the attack.

The difference being, in case you missed it, was that there was no investigation, or failures in the investigations, of killings of innocent civilians by Crown forces.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Thomas McMahon was convicted and given a life sentence for the attack on Mountbatten following an investigation into the attack.

Got me there! I was repeating a point made by the Ulster Unionist leader. Strangely he picked the Monaghan bombers for his example of glory hunters.

 

[WolfeTone]

I was repeating a point made by the Ulster Unionist leader.

Perhaps not the most objective source?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

All the same an amnesty for the Le Mon bombers, the Enniskillen bombers, the Warrington bombers, the Kingsmills massacre, the Birmingham bombers etc. etc. just to let a few Brit bad apples off the hook in a bi-election ploy. A bit hard to swallow.
I see that you are much more concerned with the bad apple Brits getting off. You are at one with SF on that as they know there is zero chance of their heroes ever being caught.

 

[WolfeTone]

just to let a few Brit bad apples off the hook in a bi-election ploy.

You don't really need to delve much further into the disregard and hypocrisy surrounding all these events than read a comment like that.
Straight out of the Eoghan Harris indoctrination playbook. Harris, who I am delighted to report is being kicked out on his ear from the Sindo for running fake Twitter account propagating his bile that is not fit for publishing.

Here is excerpt from Guardian article about proposed amnesty for British security personnel

"Unresolved killings from the Troubles have dogged policing and politics in Northern Ireland and in London, where consecutive UK governments have wrestled with whether and how to shield as many as 200 former members of the security forces from potential prosecution."

Systemic and deliberate cover-up of murder over 25yrs.

Notably, for the IRA members who will benefit from this amnesty it is the UUP and DUP who are welcoming this decision, and not SF - it speaks volumes.

The phony revulsion for the lives of innocents over IRA atrocities is revealed by the total disregard for the lives of innocents over BA atrocities - "just a few bad apples", " they had my best interests at heart".
Speaking of IRA atrocities, the campaign for #justice4the21 (Birmingham Pub bombings) has hit roadblock after roadblock within the British justice system. Questions about how much the British security forces knew prior to the actual attacks, and the lack of intervention to prevent the attacks is under scrutiny. The families continue to campaign.

Truth and Reconciliation Platform

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@WolfeTone So now the Brits share some of the blame for the Birmingham bombs. If the Brits were the root cause of all the Troubles why was Garret the Good so fearful that they would pack their bags in 1974?
You must believe that IRA decommissioning was grossly irresponsible, to leave the Catholic community at the mercy of this murder gang. I mean they murdered 11 innocents in Ballymurphy and that was with IRA defence. What would they do when that defence was gone?

 

[WolfeTone]

So now the Brits share some of the blame for the Birmingham bombs

I didn't say that. I said the #justiceforthe21 campaign has has hit roadblock after roadblock within the British justice system in determining facts about the investigation. An oddity surely?

The blame lays fairly and squarely with the perpetrators make no mistake. The investigation into the atrocity is the responsibility of the law enforcement agencies. It is the investigation, and questions relating to it, that the families of the victims are being kept in the dark about. It is a pattern that occurs again and again throughout the conflict - Birmingham, Guildford, Dublin/Monaghan, Belturbet, Loughinisland, Greysteel, Miami Showband, Derry, Ballymurphy, Finuncane, Reavey/O'Dowd, Sean Graham bookmakers.....

In the Sean Graham bookmakers 'investigation' the families were told that the weapon used in the attack had been inexplicably destroyed and lost to evidence. The assualt rifle would subsequently turn up on display at the Imperial War Museum in London.

After the revelations of a proposed amnesty for British Soldiers, which has brought condemnation far and wide, it does take some imaginative gumption on your part to minimise it all to a "few bad apples".
Eoghan Harris would be proud.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I didn't say that.

Questions about how much the British security forces knew prior to the actual attacks, and the lack of intervention to prevent the attacks is under scrutiny.

We've heard it many times. The security forces either deliberately or through incompetence were party to the IRA atrocities. Give me a break.
I think you are in the parity of disteem camp in terms of the badness of the IRA and BA. How many investigations have the IRA carried out into Le Mon, Enniskillen, Kingsmills, Warrenpoint, Warrington etc. etc. etc. Of course, there is a huge difference. The actions of bad apples in the BA are roundly condemned by those in authority. The actions by the IRA as cited are totally in line with policy, so why have an investigation other than to hand out the medals?

Oh, in case you missed the not so subtlety of my earlier post. The killing of 11 civilians in Ballymurphy was because the IRA were "defending" the populace. It was a gunfight between the IRA and the BA.

 

[Betsy Og]

Oh, in case you missed the not so subtlety of my earlier post. The killing of 11 civilians in Ballymurphy was because the IRA were "defending" the populace. It was a gunfight between the IRA and the BA.

There was rioting/running battles for days. I'd have to re-read to see how much shooting the IRA did (none in the early stages at least as the IRA wanted to radicalise the locals), but from my recollection those killed were indeed civilians - i.e. not in possession of guns or bombs, and at least some (maybe all) were executed as opposed to caught in cross fire between IRA & BA. So its every bit as bad as Bloody Sunday from what I've seen/read.

One question for the RA fans, if it was "war" then why all the whining over Loughall & the SAS "shoot to kill", they were on active service, the RA shot to kill (& the rest), why wouldn't the security forces shoot to kill? Aren't Loughall & Narrow Water just opposite sides of the same coin?

 

[WolfeTone]

@Duke of Marmalade What are you talking about? I have listed a series of well-known atrocities from the conflict, perpetrated by BA, Loyalists and IRA.

The underlying point in all of those atrocities are the questions raised about the subsequent investigations. There is more than a whiff of complicity by British security personnel at some level, either directly in the attacks, paving the way for the attacks, providing refuge and cover for the perpetrators of the attacks or deliberately interfering with the investigation into those attacks.

Your propensity to deny or accept wrong-doing on the part of British security forces in this whole conflict is completely at odds with the facts as they emerge. At the very most you try to minimise British State involvement as a "few bad apples".
The death toll in the atrocities I listed is around 111 people, over a 25yrs period, where no-one has been brought to book (except some innocent Irish people tortured into giving false confessions).

The actions of bad apples in the BA are roundly condemned by those in authority.

Condemned, Yes.
Investigated, No.
Amnesty from prosecution, absolutely!

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

There was rioting/running battles for days. I'd have to re-read to see how much shooting the IRA did (none in the early stages at least as the IRA wanted to radicalise the locals), but from my recollection those killed were indeed civilians - i.e. not in possession of guns or bombs, and at least some (maybe all) were executed as opposed to caught in cross fire between IRA & BA. So its every bit as bad as Bloody Sunday from what I've seen/read.

One question for the RA fans, if it was "war" then why all the whining over Loughall & the SAS "shoot to kill", they were on active service, the RA shot to kill (& the rest), why wouldn't the security forces shoot to kill? Aren't Loughall & Narrow Water just opposite sides of the same coin?

Young Betsy, I agree that the victims were probably all innocent civilians. But the situation arose because of the agitation and indeed use of arms by the "defenders" of the population. The circumstances in which BA excesses have been committed are oh so different from those associated with the terrorists - who deliberately set out to maim and murder. I accept that state forces should be held to a completely different standard than terrorist gangsters but it is @WolfeTone who seems to me to persist in a parity of disteem which is ridiculous.

 

[WolfeTone]

if it was "war" then why all the whining over Loughall & the SAS "shoot to kill", they were on active service, the RA shot to kill (& the rest), why wouldn't the security forces shoot to kill? Aren't Loughall & Narrow Water just opposite sides of the same coin?

Correct. The point being it was a war. British policy was to label it as a criminal conspiracy. This had the effect of telling the rest of the world, keep your nose out it is an internal criminal manner.

Which is fine, except, under UK criminal law there are no provisions for summary executions of suspected criminals or the civilian population. The right to a trial, the presumption of innocence until proven guilty etc. These tenets of fair and just criminal system in a free democratic society were rolled over in Ireland and more akin to something that belonged in China or some fundamentalist regime.

Can you imagine if the BA had unloaded live ammunition on the poll tax protests of the 80's/90's in London or the miners who were on strike in Yorkshire and Lancashire?

There was a collapse of the political system in NI, brought about the failure of the Stormont administration to act adequately to legitimate demands of the Catholic population. The civilian population were at each others throats, the IRA was an aggressor in its approach, the BA and British security apparatus responded in kind. The mass slaughter of innocents (Derry/Ballymurphy) was not a sustainable approach in its war against the IRA. The British engaged in a low-level covert war against the IRA which often involved collusion with loyalist paramilitaries to murder innocent civilians.

Force Research Unit

There is no 'whining' about Loughall or Gibraltar. IRA volunteers on active service were executed in a war time ambush. Absolutely fair game. The British should commend their officers for their actions for carrying out their war-time duties.
The only 'whining' is that the British were telling everyone else that there was no war.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Can you imagine if the BA had unloaded live ammunition on the poll tax protests of the 80's/90's in London or the miners who were on strike in Yorkshire and Lancashire?

Can you imagine the miners having an armed gang prepared to open fire on the security forces and wallowing in sectarian genocide.
@Betsy Og Lest there be any doubt #232 confirms that Wolfie is of the view that the Loyalists, IRA and BA are all equal baddies. As I mentioned before it is interesting that neither SF nor Wolfie would dare go so far as to suggest that the BA were/are worse than the IRA. Contrast this with conventional views on the Troubles of 100 years ago, which would hold that the Easter risers were on a different moral plane to the BA or indeed that the republican fighters in the WoI were similarly a cut above the Black and Tans. I exclude Wolfie from this conventional narrative as he seems to have a simplistic view that every protagonist is an equal baddie both compared to their contemporaries but also across time.

 

[Betsy Og]

I'll revisit later when have more time, but I think in Gibraltar they were unarmed at the time?, so I think that was "unlawful killing" or whatever the phrase is (albeit they were known combatants, there on a mission, so I'd be a bit more forgiving than.....say...... shooting civilians in the back in their own neighbourhood).

 

[WolfeTone]

Can you imagine the miners having an armed gang prepared to open fire on the security forces and wallowing in sectarian genocide.

Is that what the civil rights protesters had in Derry?
Or what the Ballymurphy victims had?
You are at both saying Ballymurphy was a consequence of a gun battle with the IRA and that the victims were all innocent
There was no gun battle with the IRA, in Ballymurphy or Derry. This is the fabrication, the lies to perpetuate the cover up of mass murder of civilian population.

Your propensity to excuse the BA is based on your view that overall they were the goodies. To minimise their own atrocities to a few bad apples.
You obviously haven't been the homework I gave you. The Provos are attributed to killing some 1750 out 3550 conflict related deaths.
Who killed the other 1800 (50% Civilian) ? A few 'bad apples'?

You claim that we should expect to hold the BA to a higher standard.
That is the whole point, they are not being held to a higher standard. They cover up and lie about their involvement in murders of civilians, sustained throughout the conflict, no different to IRA.

So where is, or what is this 'higher standard' you speak of?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

You are at both saying Ballymurphy was a consequence of a gun battle with the IRA and that the victims were all innocent
There was no gun battle with the IRA, in Ballymurphy or Derry. This is the fabrication, the lies to perpetuate the cover up of mass murder of civilian population.

On the morning of Monday 9 August 1971, the security forces launched Operation Demetrius. The plan was to arrest and intern anyone suspected of being a member of the Provisional Irish Republican Army. The unit selected for this operation was the Parachute Regiment. Members of the Parachute Regiment stated that, as they entered the Ballymurphy area, they were shot at by republicans and returned fire.

This was not like Derry where there was a mass protest against internment. The BA were on a security mission against the PIRA. I would fully expect some resistance from said PIRA or at least resistance from the local population who were big sympathisers. I wasn't there but I was in close by Andersonstown when Operation Motorman was launched to release it from PIRA control. It had been a No Go area for 9 months during which as a young lad I was told off by the PIRA for speeding. Possibly learning from Operation Demetrius much advanced warning had been given and the PIRA had escaped across the border. I woke to find the street crawling with British soldiers with one on my very front doorstep. No one was hurt. I have to say that I hadn't feared the BA operation but nor was I in any fear during the 9 months of PIRA control. Not because I was a brave lad but because I knew that neither the PIRA nor the BA were out to get me. Long personal narrative to let you know why I am convinced that what happened in Ballymuphy was not part of a concerted pogrom against the Catholic population, that you seem to think it was. It was a botched security operation, underestimating the capacity of the PIRA backed up by the residents to mount an armed resistance.

The Provos are attributed to killing some 1750 out 3550 conflict related deaths.
Who killed the other 1800 (50% Civilian) ? A few 'bad apples'?

More than 3,500 people were killed in the conflict, of whom 52% were civilians, 32% were members of the British security forces and 16% were members of paramilitary groups.[8] Republican paramilitaries were responsible for some 60% of the deaths, loyalists 30% and security forces 10%

Clearly the BA had by far the greatest fire power. Strangely they were "outscored" 9/1 by a few urban terrorists. They also let in 3 times as many goals as they scored, if you pardon the noir metaphor.

 

[WolfeTone]

The BA were on a security mission against the PIRA. I would fully expect some resistance form said PIRA or at least resistance form the local population who were big sympathisers

Please Duke, enough.

The very next sentence in your selective wiki quote

"Mike Jackson, later to become head of the British Army, includes a disputed account of the shootings in his autobiography and his then role as press officer for the British Army stationed in Belfast while the incidents happened.[4] This account states that those killed in the shootings were Republican gunmen."

The "IRA gunmen" killed in the shootings being identified as;

• Francis Quinn (19), shot while going to the aid of a wounded man.[13][14]
• Father Hugh Mullan (38), a Catholic priest, shot while going to the aid of a wounded man, reputedly while waving a white cloth to indicate his intentions.[13][15][16]
• Joan Connolly (44), shot as she stood opposite the army base. It has been claimed she was shot by three soldiers and that she might have survived had she been given medical attention sooner, but she lay injured in a field for several hours.[13][17][18][16]
• Daniel Teggart (44) was shot fourteen times. Most of the bullets entered his back, allegedly as he lay injured on the ground.[13][19]
• Noel Phillips (20), shot as he stood opposite the army base.[13][20]
• Joseph Murphy (41), shot as he stood opposite the army base.[13] Murphy was subsequently taken into army custody and after his release, as he was dying in hospital, he claimed that he had been beaten and shot again while in custody. When his body was exhumed in October 2015, a second bullet was discovered in his body, which activists said corroborated his claim
• Edward Doherty (28), shot while walking along Whiterock Road.[22]
• John Laverty (20) and Joseph Corr (43) were shot at separate points at the top of the Whiterock Road. Laverty was shot twice, once in the back and once in the back of the leg. Corr was shot several times and died of his injuries on 27 August.[13][23]
• John McKerr (49), shot by unknown attackers while standing outside a Catholic church, died of his injuries on 20 August.[14][24][25]
• Paddy McCarthy (44) got into a confrontation with a group of soldiers. Family allege an empty gun was put in his mouth and the trigger pulled. McCarthy suffered a heart attack and died shortly afterwards.

You speak of a higher standard being expected of the BA. What is that higher standard you refer to?

 

[WolfeTone]

Long personal narrative to let you know why I am convinced that what happened in Ballymuphy was not part of a concerted pogrom against the Catholic population, that you seem to think it was.

I never said it was!

It was a botched security operation,

Absolutely, with dire, most extreme consequences for the victims and their families.

Here is a thought, if you are going to take up arms and join an army, if someone is prepared to give orders for those arms to be used, then those people need to be held to a high standard of responsibility.

Now, before the standard "Wha' bout the 'Ra? They never took responsibility for their actions" retort - that is exactly the point.
Neither side have taken responsibility for the atrocities they inflicted in any meaningful way other than measly mouthed expressions of regret.

You claim that the BA should he held to a higher standard. What is that higher standard?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

You speak of a higher standard being expected of the BA. What is that higher standard you refer to?

A higher standard expected and in general delivered. Despite an overwhelming superiority in personnel and materiel they were responsible for only 10% of deaths (contrary to your insinuation in #235 of a far greater number) and it seems to me that a great many of these deaths were "legitimate" or accidental.
They also gave a far higher sacrifice than the urban terrorists they were here to protect us from. That's the higher standard. That's what is expected from them.
Quite rightly Bloody Sunday has captured the World's attention. Does anybody outside this island care or know about the sickening sectarian massacre at Kingsmills and other such atrocities? Did Bono give us any songs? plenty of material.
I'm all for holding security forces to account when they fall below that standard but despise the attempts by SF to use these transgressions to try and put the needlessly prolonged terrorist campaign on a respectable footing.
Question why SF are so wild keen for this accountability when by any measure the atrocities of PIRA clearly outweigh anything performed by the security forces. Two reasons. Firstly, whatever the chances of convicting a British soldier there is absolutely zero chance of any provo being held to account. Secondly the adverse publicity surrounding investigations into excesses of the security forces is oxygen to their propaganda of a just war. In fact they are not even looking for convictions, they just want the propaganda.

 

[Purple]

Just on the "Shoot to Kill" point; armed forces, including the police, are trained to shoot at the middle of the torso. They are neither trained to kill or not to kill, they are trained to hit the target. Anyone who has ever fired a rifle will know how hard it is to hit a target unless you are in a prone position. In the case of a pistol if you are more than 3-5 metres away it's very difficult to hit the target.

That said soldiers receive vastly more firearms training than any police force. Even large American forces like the NYPD do just 15 days training and that includes theory, pepper spray, tasters and firearms. Significantly less than half of that time is on a gun range. In New York in 2017 police responded to over 5 million calls, made 290,000 arrests but only discharged their weapons 52 times and 12 of those discharges were accidental.

So police receive almost no firearms training.

Then there's the army.
In the 60's and 70's the British Army received no Peacekeeping Training, no police training and no crowd control training. They, just like every other proper army in the world, are trained to regard everyone who is not in a friendly uniform as a threat. They are trained to kill people. While I'm against amnesties I'm also against trials of foot soldiers unless their commanding officers are also in the dock.