Be careful about forging salary certs when applying for a mortgage

[Brendan Burgess]

This was a widespread practice in the past. I remember being shocked by it and by the extent of it. As an employer, I was often asked to give a salary cert for more than the person earned. When I refused, I was told that everyone was doing it. The banks weren't really checking.

But this guy got a 3 1/2 year suspended jail sentence for it. As far as I can make out, he was doing something which was widespread. He was borrowing money, secured on a property. It wasn't that he was borrowing money and pretending it was secured, when it was not.

The house will be sold and the mortgage will be repaid in full, so the bank won't lose anything.

Man blames missing wife for scheme to falsify documents for mortgage

Daniel Belling (49) given 3½ year suspended sentence

www.irishtimes.com

Det Garda Niamh Seberry told Garrett McCormack, prosecuting, that Belling, who has German citizenship, used fake documents, payslips overstating his salary as €90,000, bank statements with incorrect information and an altered P60.

In July 2013, Belling was successful on his fourth attempt at applying for a mortgage with Bank of Ireland. He used this mortgage of €112,000 to buy a house on Malahide Road, which was then rented out to tenants to cover the mortgage.

...

The court heard that Belling had fallen into arrears on his mortgage repayments on the house on Malahide Road because the clients had failed to pay the rent.

Ms Lacey said the house still had €96,000 outstanding on the mortgage and that Belling had borrowed €46,000 from his sister in order to pay the arrears, which have been settled in full.

 

[Sarenco]

Yep, I’ve often made the point on here that dishonestly inducing another by deception to advance a loan is an offence under Irish law and telling “white lies” in a loan application is not to be recommended.

Aside from everything else, a “liar loan” conviction could have serious long-term implications for a borrower’s career prospects.

 

[FANTANA]

Well it’s fraud for the biggest loan of your life, in the states you get a decade.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

I’ve often made the point on here that dishonestly inducing another by deception to advance a loan is an offence under Irish law and telling “white lies” in a loan application is not to be recommended.

Hi Sarenco

Yes, I have noticed you saying that before.

I must say that I thought it was risk-free, apart from the risk of getting into excessive debt.

Does the prosecution and sentence surprise you?

Brendan

 

[newirishman]

I guess as long as you can keep up your payments, nobody really cares?

 

[noproblem]

I wonder if the banks found out how many of their customers were renting out the houses they got a mortgage on to live in only, would they bring them to court for fraud? Similar type of thing isn't it?

 

[Sarenco]

Does the prosecution and sentence surprise you?

The prosecution itself doesn’t particularly surprise me but I do think the sentence (albeit suspended) is probably a bit on the harsh side.

But really any conviction for fraud would close off a lot of career options, etc.

I suspect some posters thought I was just being sanctimonious whenever I raised the point in the past. That’s obviously fair enough but the risk of prosecution if caught is certainly not trivial.

 

[evil_g]

This the same Bank of Ireland who unambiguously encouraged people to lie to get loans, yeah?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA8le849s2k

 

[Jim2007]

This the same Bank of Ireland who unambiguously encouraged people to lie to get loans, yeah?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA8le849s2k

Absolute rubbish, at no point in your little video did that happen. Find somewhere else to troll.

 

[dubdub123]

I eould expect that This could have serious consequences when applying for roles in financial services in particular..
It can be a question asked as part of vetting and could greatly impact your career.
I'd be terrified to outrught lie and make fraudulent claims.

 

[evil_g]

Absolute rubbish, at no point in your little video did that happen. Find somewhere else to troll.

Eh? How on earth could you interpret that video any other way?

In this Bank of Ireland ad., aimed at students, each student loan applicant lies to the Bank of Ireland representative, who responds "No Problem".

It's perfectly relevant to a discussion about how lying on loan applications to Bank of Ireland could have come to be seen as a white lie.

(It's also a gobsmacking piece of Irish history and should never be forgotten.)

I've no idea what your issue with that could be.

 

[Pinoy adventure]

I eould expect that This could have serious consequences when applying for roles in financial services in particular..
It can be a question asked as part of vetting and could greatly impact your career.
I'd be terrified to outrught lie and make fraudulent claims.

Would a bank do back ground checking before hiring new staff ?
Wasn’t the some underhanded stuff discovered by the banks by there own staff over the years.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

The prosecution itself doesn’t particularly surprise

It's very surprising to me.

The man's wife has tragically never been found after she disappeared off a cruise ship in 2017.

I suspect the fraud only came to light after a life insurance claim caused someone to scrutinise the original documents more closely.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Absolute rubbish, at no point in your little video did that happen.

Hi Jim

This guy says "I need to get money for books for my course" while the subtitles are saying "a trip to Amsterdam with the lads"

Does that qualify as encouraging borrowers to tell white lies?

 

[noproblem]

Hi Jim

This guy says "I need to get money for books for my course" while the subtitles are saying "a trip to Amsterdam with the lads"

View attachment 6395

Does that qualify as encouraging borrowers to tell white lies?

100% does. Then again, fraud and head honchos working in banks is nothing strange.

 

[dubdub123]

Would a bank do back ground checking before hiring new staff ?
Wasn’t the some underhanded stuff discovered by the banks by there own staff over the years.

I was specifically referring to banks being honest but other companies in financial services domain where background checks would be pretty standard. I think pharmaceutical companies tend to run background checks as well.

 

[lff12]

It's very surprising to me.

The man's wife has tragically never been found after she disappeared off a cruise ship in 2017.

I suspect the fraud only came to light after a life insurance claim caused someone to scrutinise the original documents more closely.

So we might be hearing more?

 

[Okokokoknic]

Man who used fake documents to apply for €270k mortgage given a suspended sentence

The man used the loan to purchase a house in Walkinstown in Dublin.

www.thejournal.ie

Somewhat similar, this man forged CU statements to show savings, and was presumably at best working cash in hand, 2 years suspended, but different in that he was living in the house with partner & child, which the judge noted.

 

[Sarenco]

What’s interesting to me about that case is that the borrower is continuing to service the mortgage and the bank still felt obliged to notify the Gardai on discovering that the documentation was not in order.

A two-year (suspended) sentence is no laughing matter.

 

[LDFerguson]

What’s interesting to me about that case is that the borrower is continuing to service the mortgage and the bank still felt obliged to notify the Gardai on discovering that the documentation was not in order.

A two-year (suspended) sentence is no laughing matter.

Yes, and I'm also curious as to why the documentation was being checked AFTER the loan had been drawn down, when usually the checks are done before. I can only guess that it was perhaps pulled out for a random internal audit.

Regardless, I hope that these stories serve as a reminder to anyone who might think that doing this "is grand and/or risk-free - sure loads of people do it".

Just don't.