Bank say account closed all savings gone?

Hi I will try to answer all questions. The account is only in my uncles name, there were no other account holders on the account. It was dormant accounts within the bank that told our solicitor that they can see on a screen the account was closed in 2002. My uncle never went near this account as there was no need. We have no proof of account closed or indeed a closing statement, the bank say these would have been posted out but of course my uncle had a stroke around same time and never in fact returned home to his own home after that, he was only renting there. At this stage we need paper evidence that the money was there, my uncle only has 2 bank statements showing the money is there in 1998 and thankfully he does as we wouldn't even have an account number otherwise.
 
Thank you Gervan, the bank say there are no other accounts in my uncles name, they say they have gone through all their files, he is left with his current account only and all traces of his savings account seem to have disappeared. If we only could get copy statements that's all we need to find out what happened and why this account was closed, it wasn't dormant as we have 2 statements from 1998 and it was closed in 2002, why do banks close accounts, who closed it, these are all questions that we have no answers to and time is not on our side as he is not well.
 
why do banks close accounts,
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Banks don't just close accounts with balances in them unless the funds are transferred to the dormant accounts section. Someone must have withdrawn the money.


At this stage we need paper evidence that the money was there,
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I don't think you need any evidence more than you already have. You have evidence that the money was there in 1998.

The bank will have to prove to you that the money was withdrawn since that date. You are not able to prove the negative - that it was not withdrawn as you don't have statements after 2002.

If old bank statements were piling up in the house where he lived, a more recent occupier may well have spotted an opportunity for fraud, especially if he knew your uncle was incapacitated.

But even still, it would be very difficult to withdraw or transfer €200,000. They would have had to fake ID papers and the bank staff would have had to be happy with the new ID.

It's also possible that an errant bank employee, knowing your uncle's position, initated or colluded in the withdrawal. If the branch does not sort it out for you, then you should contact the bank's fraud or internal audit section.
 
Thank you Brendan, I think that's great advice to contact the banks fraud department, we will do that thank you.
 
Firstly this is my first posting so excuse me if I make any mistakes. Two things strike me about this post.
The first, if time is not on your side might I suggest you encourage your relative to write into his will naming the beneficiaries of any future benefits if his claim against the bank is successful and perhaps make some clear reference giving power of attorney to the executor of his will in any dealings with the bank on this matter. This type of action might prevent the obvious of the bank walking away if your relative was to decease before satisfactory conclusion.

Secondly and just a long shot did the bank happen to say what month the account was closed?? the reason i ask the dormant account act came into effect in 2001 and accounts identified as having no transactions over the previous 15 years were deemed to have been dormant in September of that year and the funds were then transferred to the dormant account section of NTMA in March of the following year. Maybe a long shot but look at the dates see if they clash with this timeline.

My understanding is the banks should have records although i think the truth could either be fraud as Brendan has suggested or incompetence around the transferring of funds in 2002/2003 for what would have been a new system.
 
Thank you white knight, no the bank only gave us the year no month or anything. The constant mantra is that they are not obliged to keep anyone's records after 6 years, I might try their fraud department and see where that gets us.
 
white knight said:
My understanding is the banks should have records although i think the truth could either be fraud as Brendan has suggested or incompetence around the transferring of funds in 2002/2003 for what would have been a new system.
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There is no obligation on the bank to hold such records for very long, once a business relationship has ended and in fact the DPA would prevent them for holding on to such data for such a long time. The statute of limitations would be the bases for the 6 year rule...

If the account had been dormant then there would indeed be a record of it, but it does not look like that was the case.

Also, keep in mind that back in 2002/3 there was not nearly as much security involved in account management.

I hope this works out for the best, but I have my doubts...
 
I'm guessing this was not an on line savings account, but one with a passbook, if so is this missing and who would have had access to it while he was sick.
 
No there is no pass book, our solicitor has suggested the Gardai too but we haven't gone that route yet as that will be a big strain for my uncle with his illness but we may have no choice. My concern is that this could happen to anybody, we are lucky we found out while he is alive but what happens if people think savings are safe, they pass on and their families are left to deal with such a situation, the whole thing has been an eye opener for me that I don't think will have a good outcome.
 
Coffey said:
He didn't need money at all as he had a stroke was in Beaumont for 3 years then rehab for 2 years learning to walk again then in nursing home for past 8 years,
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Hi Coffey,

Who has been next of kin for the 13 years your uncle has been unwell ? As in who do the hospitals, social workers, or in later years, the nursing home contact when there is any issue to do with your uncle ?

Has this always been the same person ?
 
You need to find out what happened the money. Your uncle might have simply moved the money to another bank but forgotten about it if he was that ill. No bank should be unable to give basic details of a 200k movement of funds from 2002. If the paper records are no longer there, an electronic record must exist. They should be at least able to tell you how the money was repaid. Money just doesn't leave an account and go into thin air.
 
I think that you should follow the advice of your solicitor and other posters and go to the Gardaí. The bank seems to have done nothing to try and resolve this issue (which arose in September) so it is time to move on. You have already said that your uncle is distraught, I don't think it will make the situation any more stressful to involve the appropriate authorities.

Coffey said:
My concern is that this could happen to anybody, we are lucky we found out while he is alive.....I don't think will have a good outcome..
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Your main concern at the moment should be about your uncle and his money and recovering it if it has been misappropriated. If you don't get a good outcome you're unlikely to be counting yourselves lucky.
 
I think I may also put in a complaint to the bank ombudsman as we are really getting nowhere with the bank, of course my main concern is my uncle I think I'm just gob smacked that the bank can't go back to 2002 as they think it's too old. Thank you all for your replies and advice, I will keep you all updated as to how this goes.
 
Coffey said:
I think I may also put in a complaint to the bank ombudsman as we are really getting nowhere with the bank, of course my main concern is my uncle I think I'm just gob smacked that the bank can't go back to 2002 as they think it's too old. Thank you all for your replies and advice, I will keep you all updated as to how this goes.
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But what are you going to complain about? The bank has informed you that the account was closed (not a dormant account or they would know about it) and they are under no obligation to retain records for so long after a business relationship has ended.... Unless you have actual evidence of wrong doing, then all it is going to amount to is a distraction.

At this point in time you only hope is the Garda and even that is going to be a long shot at this stage. If it was someone close to the person, then by delaying going to the guards you're giving them even more time to cover their tracks, especially if they now know that you have found out.
 
Coffey said:
I think I may also put in a complaint to the bank ombudsman as we are really getting nowhere with the bank, of course my main concern is my uncle I think I'm just gob smacked that the bank can't go back to 2002 as they think it's too old. Thank you all for your replies and advice, I will keep you all updated as to how this goes.
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Don't waste your time going down this route. It's too slow even if they agree to do anything. You seem pretty adamant that €200k of your uncles money has gone missing from a bank account. Contact the Gardai. They have a direct line into the banks fraud department. All they have to do is make a call and the bank will investigate a lot quicker because it is a potential crime and there is potential liability for the bank. Surely chasing the bank with solicitors etc is more stressful for your uncle so I can't see why you wouldn't go to the Gardai. I imagine there is an explanation but you need to find what it is.
 
I don't see any need to go to the Gardai yet. You will probably find it impossible to deal with the bank after that, as they will claim that there is a criminal investigation underway and won't talk to you any further.

Contact the bank's fraud office first of all and see how you get on.

Brendan
 
Thank you all. Yes I have the letter here from the bank but it took several phone calls from our solicitor to even get a reply. I will quote directly from it. "I can confirm that account number xxxxxxxx closed in 2002. We have no records as to where it closed to as it is more than 7 years old. We have no other information on this account and we can only access information on account transactions for the previous seven years and the information you are requesting is outside this period. Closing statements on this account would have been sent to Mr. X."
Since we got this letter at end of November having found out the money was gone at a meeting in early September we have written to the banks off site branch where they hold micro fiche but haven't even had a reply.
 
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