Are landlords justified in complaining about the new rules?

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LarryScott

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It seems that almost every thread derails into discussing this issue. Admittedly, I have been involved too, but all sub-topics touch on this.

I suggest If you find yourself talking about this point, then instead add a link to this thread.

The appearance is that rents are very high, so landlords must be making lots of money. This means that landlords have no grounds to complain that they aren't making the absolute maximum amount of rent. They are already making high rent due to the shortage and also it is a crisis.

It is also argued that security of tenure for tenants is worth it. If landlords don't like it they can just leave. That will change the make-up of the landlords to mostly large corporate landlords and that would be better, since they naturally provide security of tenure.

The other side is that there is a shortage and the rent controls are a major cause of that shortage. Keeping the rent controls means that the shortage will keep getting worse. There will be short term pain from removing the rent controls but it will bring things back into balance.

There are other issues with having a rent control. Landlords have no incentive to keep their tenants happy, and in fact, often would like them to leave. Any good action by landlords is harshly punished. This drives better landlords out of the market in favor of worse landlords.

Search costs for new tenants are also ignored by focusing on the rent price only. Since there is a shortage, it inherently takes longer to find somewhere. This then feeds into making tenants resist eviction hard.

Making evictions harder makes it harder to place tenants in the first place, as it breeds fear in potential landlords that they won't get their property back when they want it. This causes more homes to be left vacant, which makes the shortage worse.
 
LarryScott said:
The appearance is that rents are very high, so landlords must be making lots of money
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Is there any way to get a statistic on the actual average or median rent in an area or even better the distribution? Eg dublin 12. A crude measure, but would be useful. Obviously the RTB have this data, and to some degree it may be available from the 10 similar properties they will offer for rent resets. I'm sure many landlords are getting far less than the much quoted (by the media) "market rents". It would be very worthwhile to see the true picture. l fear this has never been provided, but just asking.
 
I think we're fully justified and it is only going to get worse. Rents will increase, so the next rule change might be that you upload a video of your property plus BER etc. details to the RTB and they tell you what you can rent it for.

The people who should really be complaining is tenants. There is going to be fewer properties, higher rents and really, really picky landlords (maybe the RTB will be telling us who to rent to next to solve that one).
 
I am still mulling over whether i sell a vacant property or rent out and benefit from being able to charge a market rent.

If i rent out, i would definitely be going to get a tenant who will not want to rent long term. For example, someone who is renovating a property would be ideal. This contrasts with my prior preference which wouod be to attract a tenant who woukd stay longer term

In my view, the new rules won't benefit tenants, at least in the short term. Potentially in th3 longer term it will encourage more investors (large labdlords predominantly?) into the sector. But given capacity and ither constraints, this might result in fewer properties beingg built for owner occupiers

All in all, thr new rules just seem a mess and are likely to cause negative unintended consequnces
 
Another reason why we are justified in complaining. The Minister for Housing in the Housing Committee during the week

"The RTB has probably not been resourced historically as much as it needed to be. It can take time to get a resolution but Rosemary Steen has brought new energy to the RTB. We have seen that in the number and types of fines she has put on certain landlords. The RTB is going from strength to strength in terms of efficiency and effectiveness. Those resources are critical to the RTB being able to protect renters."

It is all about the RTB policing and fining landlords. Nothing at all about rogue tenants.

The completely onesided view of the PRS from both the Department of Housing and the RTB is justication.

We know that Rosemary Steen is anti-landlord. Her press interviews show as much. And that stance has the Ministers 100% support.
 
Not complaining per se. I will just not be a LL anymore as I will not take further risk. One good thing is that in theory, if I decide to sell when my renters leave, the property will not longer be linked to low rents so could potentially attract both investors and homebuyers. That's in the short-term, if the rules don't change.
 
I think the issue is how almost all debate is from a landlord perspective, thats not really anyones fault just the nature of the users profile. There is less balance in any debate here than there is in other media.
 
The reason there is less balance is that people try to debate who do not understand the business. They are emotional and unwilling to see that investment must be hassle free, reasonably predictable and safe and reasonably profitable with as little risk as you can find for the reward.
Residential letting over the last 10 years or so, without failed has gotten far less profitable, unpredictable, very very complicated and very risky.
So it should be no surprise that people want out. And the very people baying for their blood are the ones who dont believe they want out and are getting out.
All it takes is for a landlord to do the maths properly and they will see that its time to head for the hills. Just find another hands off investment that is safer, or just spend anything you have made. That is very easy to do these days. Many are staying in the business because they dont want to be hit with CGT, but again, do the maths and you will find that if you take the CGT hit and invest elsewhere you will be way better off.
 
I just posted on another thread about 36 NoTs issued by what looks like a Fund in a housing estate in Wexford. If well advised Funds are exiting, I think we small landlords are justified in complaining.

As a result, Opposition TDs in Wexford are calling for an eviction ban. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we end up with one caused entirely by the new rules themselves. Another reason why we are justified in complaining. That said, tenants should be complaining more. These tenants in Wexford would be mostly longterm renters, what landlord will take on that risk now?
 
Greenbook said:
As a result, Opposition TDs in Wexford are calling for an eviction ban. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we end up with one caused entirely by the new rules themselves. Another reason why we are justified in complaining. That said, tenants should be complaining more. These tenants in Wexford would be mostly longterm renters, what landlord will take on that risk now?
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So whoever owns the properties have decided its not viable so its better to sell the properties. Probably means the yield is too low, probably because, as you have pointed out, they are long term tenants and rent is low.
So the owner decides to sell now as they wouldnt get vacant possession if they waited any longer.
Tenants will now have to move out and pay higher rent wherever they are going.
Any new landlord is going to raise the rents on these places to market rent. So higher rent for anyone who moves in.
And what I find most disturbing is the amount of cheering for the new legislation and rules and regulations that are anti landlord, so anti rental supply, by the very people who this is most going to effect in a big way the next time they move home.

The only hope here for the tenants in this case is for the council to buy the properties. But how many times can the councils do this? The state cant pay top dollar for every property that goes on the market just because it makes the news. At some point they will not have enough money.
 
Premos said:
One good thing is that in theory, if I decide to sell when my renters leave, the property will not longer be linked to low rents so could potentially attract both investors and homebuyers. T
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Having looked at the RTB data, I might have been wrong on this one. Good thing though, there doesn't seem to be any price issue in my area, the media, political parties and housing experts must have been wrong.
 
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JamieB_ said:
Tenants will now have to move out and pay higher rent wherever they are going.
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If anyone will take them. One of the tenants quoted in 59, so will be renting for the rest of her life. She will struggle to find a place. The new rules mean that only mobile tenants are attractive.
 
Greenbook said:
If anyone will take them. One of the tenants quoted in 59, so will be renting for the rest of her life. She will struggle to find a place. The new rules mean that only mobile tenants are attractive.
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I was just thinking the other day actually that there was a guy in Galway leading protests and phone bombs on landlords. His name and face all over the papers. He probably thinks he is having great fun. Until potential landlords look him up when he is looking to move. I assume everyone will be looking up potential tenants now like never before. Wouldnt surprise me actually if there wasnt some agency appearing soon who do a guaranteed good job at this for a fee.
 
JamieB_ said:
I assume everyone will be looking up potential tenants now like never before.
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That is a trap as well for landlords. If your tenant takes a reported case to the RTB, he can never leave! Landlords from now on will be scouring the RTB database of tribunal reports before taking on a new tenant. Your guy who took you to the RTB will never be offered another place.
 
It seems that TD landlords are leaving the market as well - article here

And as for the story that 20% of TDs are landlords, that includes commercial properties and farms which are rented out.

Another reason why our complaints are justified, the PRS is unattractive even for TDs!
 
Greenbook said:
That is a trap as well for landlords. If your tenant takes a reported case to the RTB, he can never leave! Landlords from now on will be scouring the RTB database of tribunal reports before taking on a new tenant. Your guy who took you to the RTB will never be offered another place.
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I thought that a tenant could apply to have their personal details removed. Maybe I heard wrong.
 
JamieB_ said:
All it takes is for a landlord to do the maths properly and they will see that its time to head for the hills. Just find another hands off investment that is safer, or just spend anything you have made
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In my case i am struggling to find an alternative.

Property yields around 7.5% ( on market value after allowing for capital gains tax). What can i invest in that will produce this yiels or income?

I know it's a riskier investment than previously but yield is still decent.

My preference would be to buy shares but dividend yield of what us like to buy would be closer to 3% so id have to sell share to generate the same income.

For me i don't think the maths is that straightforward.

Genuinely very interested to see who you are looking at it?

Thanks
 
You have many options that you might not even know of. Why not do a money makeover here and say what you are doing and what would people advise you to do. Or have a chat with an FA.

But just off the top of my head as a general statement not tailored to anyone in particular. If you dont need to keep any in cash.
Keep the money in world ETFs. Lots of choice of which ones. Earn 7 to 12% over the long term. Sell some and pay the tax if you need it.
Drip feed some of it each year to top up your pension to the max for a 40% gain. If yours is maxed top up your spouses.

None of this requires more than an hours work per year.
 
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