Are excessive tenants' rights resulting in empty houses?

Brendan Burgess

Brendan Burgess

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I was speaking to a friend of mine who had to pay a difficult tenant to leave. He doesn't need the money, so he has decided not to let out the house. It's a fine family home in Dublin.

Another friend is the Executor for his father's estate. His father has just died. The house is unoccupied. It will probably take a year to sell between getting the grant of probate and then putting the house on the market. I think he should let the house in the meantime. It's a family home and he would get a good income and there is a shortage of housing. But everyone else, including his solicitor has advised very strongly against it on the grounds that he probably would not be able to get the tenants out when he wants to.

I know we have to protect tenants. But if too much protection for tenants and no protection for the landlords does seem to be resulting in empty houses.

Brendan
 
Yes, Tenants seem to have excessive rights in some area- the whole disputes resolution process with the RTB is a joke and open to abuse, costing a Landlord thousands waiting for a judgement if granted against the Tenant will just be ignore in most cases anyway.
But your not 'allowed' say that Tenants have excessive rights, so prepare for incoming fire Brendan!
 
If you think Ireland has excessive tenant's rights than you'd probably be shocked at the rental market and rights in Germany, Austria, France - where there's incidentally a much higher percentage of people happily renting.

there's a big difference though:
- In Ireland, you have almost no certainty on contracts and rents. Most contracts are one year only, and most landlords can raise the rent whenever they like (I know within limitations) by whatever amount they like. That's almost unheard of on the continent. Usually rents are index-linked, contracts are longer-term (3 years minimum)
- In Ireland, mindset of rentals mostly is the hotel-type thinking: fully furnished, with responsibility on appliances etc on the landlord. On the continent, tenants can usually do whatever they want with the place (paint walls, hang picture, change carpets, bring their own furniture, even kitchen is often not included, or only a subset of appliances), but must leave the place in a state that it is ready to rent out again (e.g., walls fixed and painted, place cleaned up and ready to rent out). For larger things like Kitchens for example, you would even get the new tenant to pay the previous tenant part of the costs (unless the kitchen was put in by the landlord). I have occasionally paid a previous tenant of a rental I moved into if he left built-in wardrobes or maybe the odd book shelf.

That is just 2 of the reasons why I would never again rent in Ireland and have (unfortunately at the wrong time) bought a house. At least I can hang pictures and don't have to worry that my rent is jacked up by 500 euro from one month to the next.

As I work with a lot of people who have difficulties finding suitable accommodation for a reasonable price, or come to me asking for pay rises as their landlord has increased their rent by anything from 20-60%. I heard enough 1st hand stories about tenants being bullied out of an apartment just so the landlord gets around the 2 year rent increase limitation, or not giving back the deposits for reasons you wouldn't believe.

Don't get me wrong, I think some of the legislation is just plain stupid (isn't there a law that says a landlord must provide a microwave? WTF? ) but overall I have experienced more negative things from landlords in the few years of renting in Ireland than I had from 30 years of renting on the continent.

What really makes my blood boil every time is when I hear that "the rent must cover the mortgage", especially with high LTV BTL's - and then people calling themselves investors. But that's for a different thread.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
too much protection for tenants and no protection for the landlords does seem to be resulting in empty houses.
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Probably. I'd argue that some empty houses aren't necessarily a problem. In both anecdotes you cited, your friend's loss is another landlord's gain.

At a macroeconomic level, isn't some percentage of non-occupancy desirable and inevitable? I suppose that the theoretical "most efficient" scenario would be 100% occupancy where every bed in the country was full, but that would drive the market insane.
 
It's not that tenants' rights are excessive, it is that landlords' rights are inadequate.
I am assuming that your friend wishes to let the place for a fixed period which will be known in advance to any prospective tenant, and not just put them out whenever they want to?
In this situation, please explain what tenants' rights would enable them to stay after the expiry of a 12 month contract, for example?

We need stronger protections for tenants, and stronger liberties for landlords, for which they is a clear process to vindicate i.e. one that doesn't involve huge legal fees or gardai.
 
odyssey06 said:
stronger liberties for landlords, for which they is a clear process to vindicate i.e. one that doesn't involve huge legal fees or gardai.
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That would probably be the best solution. The big fear is that if a tenant just stops paying rent and refuses to move out, then there is very little that the landlord can do.

I have just seen this Irish Times headline.

Census 2016: Number of vacant houses ‘scandalous’
First survey results from April reveal almost 260,000 properties are unoccupied

Total vacant dwellings in Dublin, including holiday homes, numbered more than 36,000.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
The big fear is that if a tenant just stops paying rent and refuses to move out, then there is very little that the landlord can do.
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But when tenants see that landowners don't lose their houses for years when they don't pay it becomes contagious. The whole moral hazard seems to have been forgotten. There are no real consequences in this country for not paying your way, be that landlord or tenant.
 
The differences in Tenants rights / rental market in Germany etc is often cited but what is the consequence of a tenant not paying in these markets? ie how long does eviction take place ?
 
Fore said:
The differences in Tenants rights / rental market in Germany etc is often cited but what is the consequence of a tenant not paying in these markets? ie how long does eviction take place ?
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Simple answer: if you are not paying 2 months in a row (or behind 2 months), you can evict more or less immediately (as always, there's some legalities etc. but too much translation work for a Friday afternoon).
 
I write from recent its hand experience here.

Has anyone tried to rent an unfinished house outside Dublin or tried to find one to rent?

Has anyone tried to negotiate the rent on the basis of a longer-than-usual-term lease? (say 2 year min)

Has anyone tried to rent a property with a pet, say a dog?

Has anyone single, non-drinker, non-smoker tried to rent a "family-sized" say 3-bed semi house and negotiate rent on the basis of less wear-and-tear / damage potential?

Has anyone ever tried to persuade a land-lord to take out the pay in advance meters to allow the tenant to have their own supplier account used in the rented premises? Account in credit due to estimated readings.

Has anyone tried to persuade a landlord to install an outside tap to facilitate the use of a power-washer on external windows and walls, tenant's car, patio / driveway areas?

Has anyone tried to persuade a land-lord to install anything other than the developer's choice of tanked gas to reduce heating costs? Electric storage heaters, oil, solar.

Takes HAP or RA/RS.

If you or other landlords have properties that fulfil the above criteria, PM me; I need two urgently. Kilkenny, Laois, Carlow, South Tipp
 
The article does not not define what a vacant house is. Is it merely a property that didn't return a census form?
Or one that was completed indicating that the property was vacant i.e. not used at least once a week and not a holiday home?
What if the owner wasn't sleeping in the property on the sunday night but was away or e.g. in dublin in a 'pied de terre' rented accomodation for work or study?
Or vice versa - was in their country holiday home and their Dublin property was vacant that sunday night?

I'd like an answer to that before I declare a 'scandal'.
 
mathepac said:
I write from recent its hand experience here.

Has anyone tried to rent an unfinished house outside Dublin or tried to find one to rent?

Has anyone tried to negotiate the rent on the basis of a longer-than-usual-term lease? (say 2 year min)

Has anyone tried to rent a property with a pet, say a dog?

Has anyone single, non-drinker, non-smoker tried to rent a "family-sized" say 3-bed semi house and negotiate rent on the basis of less wear-and-tear / damage potential?

Has anyone ever tried to persuade a land-lord to take out the pay in advance meters to allow the tenant to have their own supplier account used in the rented premises? Account in credit due to estimated readings.

Has anyone tried to persuade a landlord to install an outside tap to facilitate the use of a power-washer on external windows and walls, tenant's car, patio / driveway areas?

Has anyone tried to persuade a land-lord to install anything other than the developer's choice of tanked gas to reduce heating costs? Electric storage heaters, oil, solar.

Takes HAP or RA/RS.

If you or other landlords have properties that fulfil the above criteria, PM me; I need two urgently. Kilkenny, Laois, Carlow, South Tipp
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I rent a family home in Dublin. I'm separated and the kids are only there 2-3 days a week. My landlord took this into account when negotiating the rent.
I don't ask him to make improvements, I do them myself and he reduces the rent by whatever amount I spend.
I put a deck in the garden and he paid for the materials and then said he's deduct what he would have had to spend in labour from the following months rent.
I would never bother him about minor issues; if the kettle broke I'd get a new one. If the curtain rail fell down I'd put it back up etc.
The utilities are in my name. I have my own contents insurance. There's a dog there a few days a week. He's cool with that.
He's a reasonable person who appreciates that I look after the place very well. I appreciate that's he's a reasonable person and a good landlord.
 
There are tenants who will take advantage and there are landlords who will also take advantage. I've experienced it all in 16+ years of renting. Glad that I've found what I consider the perfect landlord now. Hardly ever hear from him, he knows I'm looking after his place and I know that he will sort a problem out, if it's ever needed. He asked for a modest rent increase, I agreed, without question, as I know he's doing me a good deal on it. Why can't we all just get along?! :D
 
newirishman said:
If you think Ireland has excessive tenant's rights than you'd probably be shocked at the rental market and rights in Germany, Austria, France - where there's incidentally a much higher percentage of people happily renting.

there's a big difference though:
- In Ireland, you have almost no certainty on contracts and rents. Most contracts are one year only, and most landlords can raise the rent whenever they like (I know within limitations) by whatever amount they like. That's almost unheard of on the continent. Usually rents are index-linked, contracts are longer-term (3 years minimum)
- In Ireland, mindset of rentals mostly is the hotel-type thinking: fully furnished, with responsibility on appliances etc on the landlord. On the continent, tenants can usually do whatever they want with the place (paint walls, hang picture, change carpets, bring their own furniture, even kitchen is often not included, or only a subset of appliances), but must leave the place in a state that it is ready to rent out again (e.g., walls fixed and painted, place cleaned up and ready to rent out). For larger things like Kitchens for example, you would even get the new tenant to pay the previous tenant part of the costs (unless the kitchen was put in by the landlord). I have occasionally paid a previous tenant of a rental I moved into if he left built-in wardrobes or maybe the odd book shelf.

That is just 2 of the reasons why I would never again rent in Ireland and have (unfortunately at the wrong time) bought a house. At least I can hang pictures and don't have to worry that my rent is jacked up by 500 euro from one month to the next.

As I work with a lot of people who have difficulties finding suitable accommodation for a reasonable price, or come to me asking for pay rises as their landlord has increased their rent by anything from 20-60%. I heard enough 1st hand stories about tenants being bullied out of an apartment just so the landlord gets around the 2 year rent increase limitation, or not giving back the deposits for reasons you wouldn't believe.

Don't get me wrong, I think some of the legislation is just plain stupid (isn't there a law that says a landlord must provide a microwave? WTF? ) but overall I have experienced more negative things from landlords in the few years of renting in Ireland than I had from 30 years of renting on the continent.

What really makes my blood boil every time is when I hear that "the rent must cover the mortgage", especially with high LTV BTL's - and then people calling themselves investors. But that's for a different thread.
Click to expand...

I fully concur with this post and I say that as someone who lived abroad and rented there prior to renting here in Ireland. I rented in Munich for example, and it really was the case of renting an empty (albeit perfectly formed) shell and being under contract to return it as I found it - we were even given the decorators name to use (it was in the contract) to have it re-painted and there is a booming kitchen resale market where you could turn to for your fitted kitchen.

I have previously rented here for several years and it was really as if you were renting someone's much loved "home" where they didn't want anything altered.

I think one of the biggest problems with the rental market in this country is the lack of professional landlords - in Germany rental accommodation is not defined to a large number of small one or two property owners, but (as best as I can recall) larger companies, owning large stocks of properties where boundaries and rules were clearly defined.

Renting is a perfectly acceptable way to live abroad - not here though and everyone loses out - in my opinion.
 
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