Architect versus Engineer.

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hayabusa

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Building a 3000 sq ft house in Sligo. Got quotes of architects at 8% of building costs. This would be for plans, Engineering drawings/specs and supervision of the build. Approx total cost of 29k.
However I spoke to an Engineer today (civil) and he can do plans, and supervise build, sign off for the bank etc for approx 7k to 10k. This would be full supervision of the build. I want to build a creative house with lots of glass in it, and he has no issue with coming up with the design, the specs and the supervision of the work.
Is this resonable??

I cannot get any cheaper than this. (ok drawings only for 2 to 3k, however no specs, and no supervision).
 
Engineers, particularly civil, are not the best skilled people for the creative type design you're looking for - an architect will have much more input. The fees the architect is quoting looks a bit high - I'd say negotiate with him else shop ariound for someone else.
 
Civil engineers are trained in the design and construction of roads, bridges, sewers etc.- they have no formal training in the design and planning of buildings!
 
Unfortunately I doubt the engineer would come up with a "creative" design. I have yet to come across one who can do anything other than a standard house well - they are simply not trained for that. (Some even have trouble coming up with effective "standard" designs.

(You should know that when one studies architecture - pretty much the entire 5 year 40 hours a week course is to learn to be creative - but in a "useful" way. Most of the how to build a house part is learned on the job. This does mean that engineers etc. who do not have this training are unlikely to be able to do something "creative").

You might consider getting the architect to design, and getting the engineer to do the later stages. Note, however, that the biggest problem with this approach is that if the engineer doesn't "get" the design (and again IME many wouldn't), then any architectural features of the design might not be realised properly.
 
Superman is spot on there. You could be lucky and meet an engineer with a bit of design flair, but it's unusual!
 
Dude - shop around
That is seriously expensive, Our house design was 1700euro for a 1600 SqFt house, and we are retained an engineer charged who 800euros to inspect the work.

I had to shop around a lot to get a decent price. It seems the high street Architects (in my experience) are very greedy indeed
 
Architects are a bit like those eccentric chefs you see at times on TV - experimenting for some new flavour by adding a bit of this and that so that the consumer can have something different.

Engineers are employed for the more practical aspects of projects but generally have little flair for design.

My advice is to get an architectural technician who would have both a bit of flair and "hands on" knowledge of construction methods.
 
Depends on the architect Nutty Nut. I would agree though that there are some architects who think clients should feel privileged that the architect is basically spending vast amounts of their money on the architect's own personal (short-term) fad or latest experiment.
(One thing that bugs me about Irish architects is how many of them love timber cladding - which I think looks great in environments in the U.S. etc., but tends to get splotchy and covered in mould here in Ireland. For some reason their belief in the material outweighs what they see with their own eyes)
For that reason, if you do find an architect - ask to see their portfolio to see if what they do suits you.

An experienced techie would be a better bet than an engineer for the design.
Again though if you are going for "something creative", then they simply aren't trained for it. You might be lucky though.
 
8% of final build cost is actually quite reasonably for a fully qualified architect. The standard is 10/11%.
I am in the process of planning permission (sending back in further information at present!) & I got an architect Technician to draw up plans (€1 per square foot - this included helping out with planning application). Thought that was very reasonable. I will then have the option of using him to supervise the build.
Have you gotten any personal recommendations for the architect/engineer - as with any other aspects of the build this is very important.
At the very least ask to see what other work they have done.
No point in skimping at the design stage & then ending up with a house you arent happy with - most people will only build once so it might as well be as close to you 'perfect house' as possible
 
Carpenter is right , I'm an Civil Engineer and when one of my friends come to me, as they sometimes do , and ask me to do plans give them ideas etc I run for the hills.
Our job is firstly to ensure the structural integrity of whatever it is we're building, second that its "fit for use" , and thirdly that all necessary building regs and fire regs are been conformed with in the fabric of the building.
Its so easy to spot an Architect designed house Vs a Civil Engineering background draughtsman designed house , the former will have the wow factor here there & everywhere whilst the latter will boxes and squares to beat the band , anything that makes for an easy life on autocad.
Hayabusa you must have some ideas of your own, go to an Architect, a proper one mind you , RIAI member , speak to them , bring them to the site , discuss aspect etc , ask them to do you a few concept sketches, these will allow you to take a bit from all the ideas presented, then decide what your gonna build, your only gonna get one run at building this house and design changes later will cost a fair bit.
The fees Architects charge are negotiable make no mistake about that, and at the end of the day as winne said it would be criminal to skimp at this stage and regret it later.
Hope it all works out for you and you get the house of your dreams.

P.S. If you ever wanna build a motorway, bridge , resevoir , marine jetty etc etc pm me ;)
 
Like all good contractors I'll give you a good price now , but it will rise a lot by the time I'm finished :p
 
ok, Thanks for the reply.
I have spoken to a lot of architects who are qualified ones(RIAI), and it looks like they charge a % of the finished product to draw plans.
From what i can see and hear if someone just draws the plans for 2000 to 3000 they are probably Civil Engineers or draftsmen of some sort or another and not architects.
Qualified Architects seem to charge approx 7 to 10k for doing plans for a 3000 sq ft house alone, then another 3% approx for supplying specifications to builders, and a further 3% to oversee the project.
This seems to be the case in the North West area.

Do anyone agree with this.
P.S. Anyone can call themselves Architects as the term is not regulated. Its only when you query someones exact qualifications that you realise that there are not actually Architects but are acting as one.

I do not really mind this, however an Architect will come up with a creative plan as an engineer draftsman etc etc will not Generally speaking.

Like everyone I want the best of both worlds, Creative designs at minimum price.

Can anyone help.

Thanks.
 
Winnie said:
I got an architect Technician to draw up plans (€1 per square foot - this included helping out with planning application). Thought that was very reasonable. I will then have the option of using him to supervise the build.
Click to expand...

We have gone down this route, had a very efficient technician help us design draw up the plans and submitted them to planning on our behalf, at a rate of 1 euro per square ft.

We initially were going with with an architect, but pleased we changed to go with the technician. I preferred his design to the architects......however plans have just gone in this week, so fingers crossed they meet with approval!
 
Thanks Bats,

How do I get in touch with a Technician,
Are these trainee Architects, or do some of them set up on their own.
I thought the technicians were employed by Architects and it would be difficult to get access to them for a private job.

Can you Please clarify
 
A lot of technicians have their own independant private practice. Some of them will still trade under the title "Architect" but there is now a European charter which stipulates certain academic and practical experience necessary to use the title.

Have a look through the yellow pages under architectural technicians or ask around the locality. The local planning office may be able to give you a few names - they are not really suppose to do this but if you get the right person they will help with names, addresses etc

Personally I think the technician is your best bet but then Id be biased :D
 
I drew my own plans based on ideas from books, brought them to an architect to draw them to soec, this cost €500. The engineer I have is paid in 3 stages with each stage costing €1500 + vat. The house is 3660 square feet.
and yes he is a qualified architect.
 
Qualifications of Personl Certifying Works.

When you do construction work, you must take account of planning issues and Building Regulations. If you are selling or mortgaging a property that has been substantially built/renovated since 1963, the Purchaser / Lender will require evidence ( in the form of a formal Certificate/Opinion from a qualified person) that the works done were either exempt from planning or required planning, that the works were done in accordance with the planning permission if applicable and that the works complied with Building Regs ( since early 1990's).

As far as I know, anyone can call themselves an Architect. The major problem the conveyancers have ultimately is whether the person certifying the works is someone recognised as qualified. The current list of persons acceptable to certify is engineers, building surveyors, architects ( RIAI) or persons in practice providing architectural services for at least 10 years.

mf
 
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