Appropriate approach to someone driving at 90kph in the middle lane of the Naas Rd?

mathepac said:
Right here, in your own typing ---> simply put and very specific, leaving out, ifs ands or buts, special cases or exceptions, thems the rules. The only confusion that might arise is where someone genuinely doesn't know left from right.
Right here --->
It follows naturally from the simple rule.

The person in the middle lane may be an eejit who doesn't understand motorway driving but that doesn't give anyone travelling in and around him the right to deliberately flout safety and the ROTR.

The Brits used to have a little mantra for motorway driving that I was forced to learn years ago before I did my first test. It said "Pass right, stay left". I think it still has relevance today with people making up their own rules to suit their poor driving behaviour.

With posters becoming more and more obdurate and obtuse I'm gonna sign off with Purple' words of wisdom ---> and remember your right is the side opposite to which you carry your sword or the arm opposite the one which you offer in support and protection when escorting a lady.
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Selecting the same quote and constructing a false premise by, to say the least, misunderstanding that meaning of that quote, in order to make the same point over and over again doesn’t make you correct.
You have not addressed my previous point. If you misinterpretation of the rules of the road were correct then;
It would mean that if a driver in the middle lane slows down for some reason every car in the inside lane who continues to drive at the speed they were doing is breaking the law. It would mean that if a driver in the middle land slams on the breaks cars in the inside lane should also slam on.
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Do you think that this would constitute safe driving?
If not, and considering that the rules of the road are there to encourage safe driving, then your counter intuitive understanding of correct road usage does not stand up.
If your interpretation was correct then any time a driver slowed down then all traffic in any lane to their left would also have to slow down by the same amount.
If a car in the left most lane, driving within the speed limit on a 3 lane motorway, came upon a car in the rightmost lane driving slowly they would have to cross to that rightmost lane and drive behind the slow moving car, waiting for them to pull over to the left, before they could proceed. They would have to do this rather than stay where they are, driving safely and within the speed limit.
The idea doesn’t stand up to the most basic scrutiny.
 
if everyone was following the law,then most of the scenarios you outline shouldn't be happening!
 
Coincidental timing of this particular court case...

'DUBLIN Wives' star Danielle Meagher dangerously passed out a line of vehicles, then accused the investigating garda of bullying her because she was driving "a nice car", a court heard.

The celebrity botox doctor was convicted over the incident after she admitted performing the undertaking manoeuvre in heavy traffic as she drove from Galway to Dublin.
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Article isn't really explicit enough in stating what the exact charge was.
 
Ok, some of this thread is bordering on the ridiculous, now I’m probably going to add to it.

I completed an advanced driving course a month ago and I asked the instructor specifically about passing on the left/undertaking on multi lane roads. The answer I got was the standard ROTR quotes given in numerous posts earlier in thread. The ROTR make allowances for slow(er)/queued traffic in a lane to your right which may be passed on the left (undertaken). I then asked her what constitutes “slow moving traffic” or indeed “queued traffic”. Is it traffic moving at say, 5Km/H or 12Km/h or 18Km/h or indeed even 42Km/h et al. ? Her reply was that the ROTR does not state a specific speed.


So while passing on the left is not the preferable way to pass traffic, it is certainly allowed in certain circumstances. IMHO if some clown(s) is/are dawdling along in a lane(s) to your right then there is some justification if by you staying in your lane, driving at or approaching the speed limit, you may pass them out . I would go so far as to say that possibly this could be successfully argued in court, but then again this is only my opinion. Common sense often has little or no place in law!


I fully concur with other posters that to change lanes to pass on the left is wrong and should be strongly discouraged.


Now to really put the cat among the pigeons. Who the hell designed the lanes that filter/merge into the overtaking lane??? Two that spring to mind are at the “Red Cow” interchange and the “Palmertown/Lucan” interchange on the M50. Who has “right of way” there, undertaking traffic on your left or you merging on the right of oncoming traffic ( in to the overtaking lane)??


Tell me where that is covered in the ROTR ??
Only in Ireland……….
 
SparkRite said:
I fully concur with other posters that to change lanes to pass on the left is wrong and should be strongly discouraged.
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Agreed.

Ref the Red Cow ect, while it's stupid it's not a motorway so exiting and entering on the right is allowed. It's dangerous and it's bad road design but it's allowed.
 
SparkRite said:
Ok, some of this thread is bordering on the ridiculous, now I’m probably going to add to it.

I completed an advanced driving course a month ago and I asked the instructor specifically about passing on the left/undertaking on multi lane roads. The answer I got was the standard ROTR quotes given in numerous posts earlier in thread. The ROTR make allowances for slow(er)/queued traffic in a lane to your right which may be passed on the left (undertaken). I then asked her what constitutes “slow moving traffic” or indeed “queued traffic”. Is it traffic moving at say, 5Km/H or 12Km/h or 18Km/h or indeed even 42Km/h et al. ? Her reply was that the ROTR does not state a specific speed.


So while passing on the left is not the preferable way to pass traffic, it is certainly allowed in certain circumstances. IMHO if some clown(s) is/are dawdling along in a lane(s) to your right then there is some justification if by you staying in your lane, driving at or approaching the speed limit, you may pass them out . I would go so far as to say that possibly this could be successfully argued in court, but then again this is only my opinion. Common sense often has little or no place in law!


I fully concur with other posters that to change lanes to pass on the left is wrong and should be strongly discouraged.


Now to really put the cat among the pigeons. Who the hell designed the lanes that filter/merge into the overtaking lane??? Two that spring to mind are at the “Red Cow” interchange and the “Palmertown/Lucan” interchange on the M50. Who has “right of way” there, undertaking traffic on your left or you merging on the right of oncoming traffic ( in to the overtaking lane)??


Tell me where that is covered in the ROTR ??
Only in Ireland……….
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Very good post Sparkrite. I completely agree on your take on staying in your lane if someone is dawdling along at 60km/h in the middle lane. That said though I very much doubt the court would see it my way if some garda having a bad day decided to pull me over as a result. And I'm pretty certain I would be laughed out of court if I tried to adopt Purples' ridiculous definition of overtaking meaning I need to change lanes as part of a manoeuver!
 
Ceist Beag said:
And I'm pretty certain I would be laughed out of court if I tried to adopt Purples' ridiculous definition of overtaking meaning I need to change lanes as part of the manoeuver!
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http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/overtaking.html

This link was one of the reference documents on the Wikipedia page on overtaking. It gives instructions/advice on how to overtake. It specifically talks about changing lanes as part of the manoeuvre. If you are driving along in a lane and passing cars in the other lane you are not overtaking them; you are driving past them. That applies if you are passing them on the outer or inner lane. If you are driving in a lane at a constant speed within the speed limit you are not performing a manoeuvre every time you pass a car in another lane.
When you are on a motorway in a right hand lane do you say to yourself "That's a manoeuvre... that's another manoeuvre" each time you pass a car on your left?... No?... well why would you think it's any different when you pass a car on your right?
 
Good luck with that argument if you ever get brought to court for this scenario Purple! "I wasn't overtaking the car m'lud, I was merely driving past it". :D
 
Purple said:
You are being silly, to say the least.
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Explain Purple. You are making an argument that staying in the left lane and passing a car in the middle lane is not against the rules of the road because, in your view, you are not overtaking/undertaking the car in the middle lane, you are merely driving past it because you have not made any manouever. I disagree with your interpretation, how is that being silly?
 
Ceist Beag said:
Explain Purple. You are making an argument that staying in the left lane and passing a car in the middle lane is not against the rules of the road because, in your view, you are not overtaking/undertaking the car in the middle lane, you are merely driving past it because you have not made any manouever. I disagree with your interpretation, how is that being silly?
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Because you haven't addressed any of the issues I have raised but have just made glib comments.
 
Purple said:
Because you haven't addressed any of the issues I have raised but have just made glib comments.
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Purple this is getting absolutely ridiculous now. If you are in Lane 3 (an OVERTAKING lane) you are OVERTAKING anything that is in Lane 2 no matter how you got into Lane 3.
 
Purple the link you included was clearly explaining how to overtake safely when changing lanes in order to do so. You are taking this as a definition of the word overtaking meaning that changing lanes is required in order to overtake. Nowhere in that link does it state that overtaking only occurs where changing lanes is required.
 
RonanC said:
Purple this is getting absolutely ridiculous now. If you are in Lane 3 (an OVERTAKING lane) you are OVERTAKING anything that is in Lane 2 no matter how you got into Lane 3.
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Ceist Beag described overtaking as a manoeuvre. If you haven’t done anything, i.e. are staying in the lane you are in at the same speed, how are you performing a manoeuvre?
The rules of the road presume that when people know that overtaking means passing a car in front of you, not passing a car that’s in a different lane. In order to pass a car in front of you, you must move into a different lane. The rules of the road state that you must move to the right, not to the left, in order to perform that manoeuvre.
Suggesting that someone should move across three lanes of traffic in order to pass a slow moving vehicle on their right and then move back across to where they were is patently ridiculous. How on earth can that be safer than staying where they are at the speed they are travelling at? No judge in the developed world would sanction someone for staying in their lane and just driving on. The notion is utterly stupid.
 
Purple said:
Ceist Beag described overtaking as a manoeuvre.
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You love playing with words Purple. I have edited my original reply now to clarify I was not calling overtaking a manouevre!

Purple said:
No judge in the developed world would sanction someone for staying in their lane and just driving on. The notion is utterly stupid.
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The point is that we have been told this has happened, even on this thread (and in other threads previously). I agree as it happens that the notion is stupid but I would not be prepared to make the argument you are making that it cannot be deemed overtaking/undertaking because I had not changed lanes.
 
Purple said:
Ceist Beag described overtaking as a manoeuvre. If you haven’t done anything, i.e. are staying in the lane you are in at the same speed, how are you performing a manoeuvre?
The rules of the road presume that when people know that overtaking means passing a car in front of you, not passing a car that’s in a different lane. In order to pass a car in front of you, you must move into a different lane. The rules of the road state that you must move to the right, not to the left, in order to perform that manoeuvre.
Suggesting that someone should move across three lanes of traffic in order to pass a slow moving vehicle on their right and then move back across to where they were is patently ridiculous. How on earth can that be safer than staying where they are at the speed they are travelling at? No judge in the developed world would sanction someone for staying in their lane and just driving on. The notion is utterly stupid.
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The rules of the road do not persume anything.

Lane 2 and 3 are clearly defined as overtaking lanes and should only be used to overtake.


Lane 1
The normal 'keep left' rule applies. Stay in this lane unless you are overtaking.

Lane 2
On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.
On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

Lane 3
If you are travelling on a three-lane motorway, you must use this lane only if traffic in lanes 1 and 2 is moving in queues and you need to overtake or accommodate merging traffic. Once you've finished overtaking, move back to your left and allow faster traffic coming from behind to pass by.
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RonanC said:
The rules of the road do not persume anything.

Lane 2 and 3 are clearly defined as overtaking lanes and should only be used to overtake.
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I agree. It doesn't say that you cannot drive faster in the left hand lane than a slow moving car in a right hand lane though.
You will notice, in the link you posted, that when overtaking is mentioned it is done so in the context of changing lanes;
Lane 1
The normal 'keep left' rule applies. Stay in this lane unless you are overtaking.

Lane 2
On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.
On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

Lane 3
If you are travelling on a three-lane motorway, you must use this lane only if traffic in lanes 1 and 2 is moving in queues and you need to overtake or accommodate merging traffic. Once you've finished overtaking, move back to your left and allow faster traffic coming from behind to pass by.
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Having read some of the posts above I hope I never come across certain AAM board members on the road.... maybe their user names' might be a clue in spotting them by their car colour... ;)

Anyway.... I think a little answer wiki might be in order...

1 - You must always overtake on the right.
2 - Passing a car to its left is only acceptable when the traffic situation dictates (slow moving traffic has been mentioned above but I would add into this heavy traffic conditions traveling at up to the speed limit where you maintain the speed of your lane rather than perform the more dangerous manoeuver of changing lanes).
3 - It is correct to travel in left most lane of a multi-lane highways (dual carriage ways, motorways, etc.) not including the hard shoulder.
4 - Motorway driving requires awareness of the road and traffic conditions around you (left, right, front and behind) including such things as upcoming junctions, merging traffic and traffic traveling on other lanes.
5 - Being securely surrounded by a metal box does not exclude you from showing common courtesy to those around you (would you cut off that other person; push in front of them; block their path or wave rude gestures at them if you were both pedestrians on a pavement?).
 
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