Another Penalty Point Question

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Mini3277

Registered User
Messages
92
Ok so I was driving to work this morning, went through an amber light. Third car back waiting to turn right was a Garda car. The car turned around and pull in behind me. He didn't pull me over at this point just pulled in behind me. They just had a good look at who was in the car – I’m a young individual driving a BMW. I moved on. He then flashed his lights and pulled me over.

They got out of the car and proceeded to tell me that I broken a red light. The light was certainly not red when I went through the junction, although it more than likely was red by the time I got to the other side of the junction.

Now I'm left in a situation where I'll be getting a ticket for 2 penalty points in the coming weeks.

I’ve looked over the guidelines in relation to stopping at lights. They read as follows;

An amber light means that you must not go beyond the stop line or, if there is no stop line, beyond the light. However, you may go on if you are so close to the line or the light when the amber light first appears that stopping would be dangerous.

I would contend that I was certainly within the guidelines as outlined above. I was doing about 50Km/h. I think that if I’d hit the brakes to stop the car then I would have either stopped in the middle of the junction or got rear ended by the car behind me.

I feel extremely hard done by but don't know if there is anything I can do about it. If I appeal the decision I run the risk of getting 5 points for the offence. As I already have two points I cannot run the risk of having the charge increased to 5 points. I’m currently looking to see if I can get my hands on any CCTV footage of the incident. Do I have any further recourse?
 
I think the problem is the 50km/h as you approached the lights. Even when green you're supposed to slow speed (not to a crawl) but to allow for safe stopping just in case. Even at green there is the caveat that you can proceed "if safe to do so".

Amber is prepare to stop and the argument of the Gardai would be you should have anticipated it.

Not a defence of them, but I don't see much remit to fight this particular one.
 
Thanks for the reply. The speed limit in the area is 60Km/h. I was driving in traffic, so my speed could have been slightly less or slightly more. I was driving in either 2nd or 3rd gear. The Garda never mentioned that my speed entering the junction was excessive.

The Garda was completely unwilling to discuss the matter with me, as I suppose they are in most cases. However, I cannot help but feel I was pulled over completely because I was a young driver driving a BMW. I feel completely hard done by – I imagine that if I had been a 40 year man/women driving a Micra then I wouldn’t have been pulled over.

I think my best form of recourse will be to accept the fine and penalty but to write to the Garda Commissioner and Garda Ombudsman in relation to the matter.
 
Why not wait, don't pay and argue the case in court. It's a gamble of either 0 or 4 penalty ponts and a a bigger fine; however if you know the law on the amber light and you did not break it go for it. It is your word or the garda's. Chances are thet the guard wont even turn up!
 
The Garda was completely unwilling to discuss the matter with me, as I suppose they are in most cases. However, I cannot help but feel I was pulled over completely because I was a young driver driving a BMW. I feel completely hard done by – I imagine that if I had been a 40 year man/women driving a Micra then I wouldn’t have been pulled over.
Click to expand...
Welcome to the real world:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Mini3277 said:
The light was certainly not red when I went through the junction, although it more than likely was red by the time I got to the other side of the junction.
Click to expand...
Was it a surprise to you to learn that amber lights are generally followed by red shortly afterwards?
 
Complainer said:
Was it a surprise to you to learn that amber lights are generally followed by red shortly afterwards?
Click to expand...

Thank you for the useful comment.

The point is that I was nearly by my side of the junction by the time the lights turned amber. It would not have been possible for me to stop at my side of the junction.

Perhaps you might review and revert.
 
Mini,

Exact same thing happened my daughter - I wasn't in the car at the time but she swears the light went orange just as she went by - at the time we let it go - paid the fine and took the penalty points.

In hindsight - I regret that action - I think we should have challenged it - his word against hers - my feeling now was that he had his quota to reach and it was like 'shooting fish in a barrel' as she went by...

I'd say challenge it - but I would seek advice first (legal)...

BTW - you are probably spot on re your feeling that you were pulled over because you are young and driving a BMW, but you'll never be able to prove that, so let it go, galling and all as it might be.... concentrate your energies on proving that it would have been dangerous for you to stop as light went orange.

best of luck....
 
Mini, I think that you and others are missing the point

An amber light means that you must not go beyond the stop line or, if there is no stop line, beyond the light. However, you may go on if you are so close to the line or the light when the amber light first appears that stopping would be dangerous.
Click to expand...

In other words, an amber light means "stop". Most of us interpret it as meaning, put the boot down as the lights will go red shortly. But we are crashing the lights.

The speed limit in the area is 60Km/h. I was driving in traffic, so my speed could have been slightly less or slightly more. ....The Garda never mentioned that my speed entering the junction was excessive.
Click to expand...

There is a bit of a problem here. If you are driving slowly, you will have plenty of time to stop. If you are driving too quickly, you will have to crash the lights.

They just had a good look at who was in the car – I’m a young individual driving a BMW.
Click to expand...

I am guessing that this is paranoia on your part. But it might not be. The Garda might figure that by giving you 2 points now, they will encourage you to drive more carefully and so you might live longer.

You crashed a light.
The Gardai stopped you.
You got 2 penalty points.

So, slow down and be prepared to stop if traffic lights go amber.

Brendan
 
Brendan,

perhaps you are missing the point - there are times when it would be dangerous to stop as a light goes amber - even the RSA acknowledge this on their website... I quote....

An amber light means that you must not go beyond the stop line or, if there is no stop line, beyond the light. However, you may go on if you are so close to the line or the light when the amber light first appears that stopping would be dangerous.

I am not condoning the act of 'speeding up' as lights go orange - that I agree is wrong.
 
I appreciate that, but a good driver will slow down when approaching traffic lights, so that if the light goes amber, they will be able to stop safely.

If I got caught going through an amber light, I would just take the hit.
 
Brendan said:
I appreciate that, but a good driver will slow down when approaching traffic lights, so that if the light goes amber, they will be able to stop safely.

If I got caught going through an amber light, I would just take the hit.
Click to expand...

Brendan I appreciate your point. However there is always a point in time - just as the lights go amber where a car is just entering the junction. It was that exact moment today. The stopping momentum of a car is not instantaneous. I firmly believe that it just wasn't possible for me to stop at those lights this morning, I would have ended up in the middle of the junction.

I don't believe your comment in relation to a good driver always being able to stop safely is true. Also, am I right to assume that you are of the opinion that I am not a good driver?
 
Unfortunately Mini you will find that the internet forums throughout the world are packed with similar cases.
The bottom line is that yours was a borderline case and the decision has gone against you, I think you just have to suck it up and be aware in future.
My own situation was regarding a speeding fine dished out to me on a stretch of road notorious as a handy book-filler for the local gardai. ( I found this out after I was stopped ).
It was on the 1st of January on a 3 lane carriageway which for approx. 200 metres has a reduced speed limit of 50kph to account for a school which is on the opposite side of the carriageway. As well as being a school holiday it was 9pm but the speed limit is set and there is no point disputing it.
However, in my case i have never had as much as a parking ticket in 30 years of driving and instances like this have genuinely soured me against the gardai. I understand that almost everyone has an excuse but in borderline cases how hard would it be just to give a verbal warning and that would be that.
Anyway, I`ll visit you in jail ;).
 
If I were you I would pay the fine as soon as it arrives, as the sooner you pay it the sooner the points will be added to your licence & the sooner they will expire.

If you dispute it, go to court & are found guilty (highly likely IMO as it’s your word against the Garda's) not only will you get double points & a larger fine, but the points won’t be added to your licence until you pay that fine, which could be months from now, which means extra points for what will realistically be a longer period.

Also, if the judge asked you do you currently have any penalty points on your licence & what they are for, no matter what they are for it could be construed that you may not be as careful a driver as you claim to be…..not even sure whether they can or would ask that, but if they did it could dilute your argument so I don’t think you’d be doing yourself any favours by disputing it.

However, I do agree that travelling at 50kph even if you stood on the brake when you were so close to the amber light that you felt it was unsafe to stop, you would have been more of a hazard to other road users than if you had simply carried on.

Sometimes you just can’t win, even when you are (or think you are) in the right.
 
Also, am I right to assume that you are of the opinion that I am not a good driver?
Click to expand...
Well it's only one incident, but let's look at the evidence you provide:

The speed limit in the area is 60Km/h. I was driving in traffic, so my speed could have been slightly less or slightly more.
Click to expand...

The 60k is not a target - it is a limit. You should not be exceeding it. I am surprised that the limit is as high as 60k at a junction. I will check today, but I thought that speed limits reduced approaching traffic lights. In any event, even if the speed limit is 60k - in certain conditions, you should reduce the speed.

Traffic lights do turn amber - you know this.

You may have been exceeding the speed limit.

You were driving in traffic at 60 k.

You were approaching a junction at 60k.

I’ve looked over the guidelines in relation to stopping at lights. They read as follows;
Click to expand...
Were you not aware of these before?

Research suggests that 80% of people consider themselves to be better than average drivers.

I am one of the 20%. I am not a good driver. But very few people are prepared to admit this.

You may have been speeding in traffic approaching a fairly significant junction.

I would say that you are probably a young driver who needs to slow down and learn from your mistakes.

Brendan
 
Mini3277 said:
Brendan I appreciate your point. However there is always a point in time - just as the lights go amber where a car is just entering the junction. It was that exact moment today. The stopping momentum of a car is not instantaneous. I firmly believe that it just wasn't possible for me to stop at those lights this morning, I would have ended up in the middle of the junction.
Click to expand...
60 kmph is roughly equal to 17 metres per second. If the lights went amber just as you entered the junction, and were red before you exited the junction, and the amber was present for say 3 seconds (though it is usually more than this), this means the junction was 50 metres wide!

So, was the junction really 50m wide? Or is it just possible that it went amber BEFORE you entered the junction?
 
I think it would also depend how close the driver is behind, if you slap the brakes on, you will get rear ended. If you slow down he has more chance of stopping. But I do feel that a lot of people are passing amber and red lights now because there is such a long wait before the green again. My son was stopped by the Garda when he was following a high lorry and did not see them change but he would not discuss it.
 
roker said:
My son was stopped by the Garda when he was following a high lorry and did not see them change but he would not discuss it.
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that going so close that you can't see where you are going should be a valid excuse for breaking lights?
 
Complainer said:
60 kmph is roughly equal to 17 metres per second. If the lights went amber just as you entered the junction, and were red before you exited the junction, and the amber was present for say 3 seconds (though it is usually more than this), this means the junction was 50 metres wide!

So, was the junction really 50m wide? Or is it just possible that it went amber BEFORE you entered the junction?
Click to expand...

You seem to have forgotten to take reaction time into account in your calculation. Reaction time can vary from 0.5 second to 2 seconds, your calculation is flawed. I would guess that the junction was about 25 - 30 metres.

Also in relation to the amber light, yes the light was amber when I went through my side of the junction. You'll note from the initial sentence of my OP that I stated the light was amber. What's your point? An amber light means stop if it is safe to do so - it doesn't mean hit the brakes and stop even if it's going to cause a car crash or the car comes to a stop in the middle of the junction.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top