Another General Election

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Sophrosyne

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After 40 days in the wilderness, will we now have to have another general election?

If there are irreconcilable differences between FG and FF, why don’t they just admit it?
 
I think its the only option at this moment, I think support would fall for FF, FG and SF and grow for the Independents based on what I have seen on the news
 
I'm not really into politics but watched some of Claire Byrne's show the other night. A very tired looking Tom McGurk made a very good point that no one can see a difference between the two parties so they should just form a coalition. He told them they were putting their parties before the country... a barb that offends every politician although we all know it to be true.


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie
 
There is a fundamental difference between the 2 parties around Irish Water and how water charges should be handled. I am wondering if FF are trying to create a situation where IW will more or less be the only item on the agenda
 
thedaddyman said:
There is a fundamental difference between the 2 parties around Irish Water and how water charges should be handled. I am wondering if FF are trying to create a situation where IW will more or less be the only item on the agenda
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Well, FF's proposal seems to be holding off on charges for another 18 months or so while a new utility is set up. So ultimately heading in the same direction, but eliminating the poisoned IW name, and most likely spending many millions abolishing it and moving the staff on.
 
SBarrett said:
He told them they were putting their parties before the country... a barb that offends every politician although we all know it to be true.
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Of course they are and who could blame them if we take the fate of previous minor parties in coalition governments as an example. The broad electorate as a body tend to look for scapegoats in the perceived deficiencies of every Government. We tend to elect the opposition parties on the blind faith that this time will be different and to a large extent opposition parties do not get elected by telling it as it is but by spouting political rhetoric and promises that they know well they can never implement! "Labours way or Frankfurts way" being only 1 recent example!!
SF have avoided this poised chalice by staying out of any Government discussions and rely on the fact that as an untested party in Government they will attract the disaffected and skeptical voters who believe that somewhere out there is a Government who will provide a high level of Health, Education, SW and do all those on the back of a low tax regime for all but the very "high earners!!
My next project is to start up the "Airy Fairy" party of Ireland who will do all of the above plus ensure that all of my ministers commit Hari Kiri every time they fail to achieve those policies that they have promised the electorate. The spectacles themselves will be held in Croke Park on a monthly basis and ticket charges will boost the Government coffers. residents will be given free tickets to avoid protests.

Why do we have to live in real life when our opposition parties never doo_O
 
On the point of IW, according to the Fianna Fail manifesto:

“According to the Department of the Environment the net cost of scrapping water charges would be of the order of €210m annually. This would be replaced by a direct state subvention to the new National Water Directorate, which will be run at an approximate cost of €16.2m per annum. We would also fully provide for the costs of winding down Irish Water, at a cost of €9.1m and abolish the government’s botched Water Conservation grant to save the state €110m.”
 
Sophrosyne said:
“According to the Department of the Environment the net cost of scrapping water charges would be of the order of €210m annually. This would be replaced by a direct state subvention to the new National Water Directorate
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Not sure how this would meet the requirements of Article 9 of the EU Water Framework Directive.

Sophrosyne said:
the costs of winding down Irish Water, at a cost of €9.1m
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Seems very low when you're talking about thousands of staff.
 
thedaddyman said:
There is a fundamental difference between the 2 parties around Irish Water and how water charges should be handled. I am wondering if FF are trying to create a situation where IW will more or less be the only item on the agenda
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Why should such a minor side issue be the stumbling block for the formation of a government.
Anyone, and I mean anyone, who cast a vote in the election based on what a candidates position was on Irish water then they are a myopic fool. In the scheme of things that impact on this country and will effect our future Irish Water is utterly irrelevant. If people voted due to the broader message of the AAA/PBP then that's fair enough; they don't understand economics and are delusional but they are not necessarily stupid.
Calling Irish Water a fundamental issue is like calling a disagreement over what colour Taxis should be a fundamental issue.
 
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Purple said:
Why should such a minor side issue be the stumbling block for the formation of a government.
Anyone, and I mean anyone, who cast a vote in the election based on whether a candidates position on Irish water then they are a myopic fool. In the scheme of things that impact on this country and will effect our future Irish Water is utterly irrelevant. If people voted due to the broader message of the AAA/PBP then that's fair enough; they don't understand economics and are delusional but they are not necessarily stupid.
Calling Irish Water a fundamental issue is like calling a disagreement over what colour Taxis should be a fundamental issue.
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I agree.

Unfortunately, it appears to have become a critical issue for both parties in particular, FF, no matter how ill-judged.
 
Purple said:
Anyone, and I mean anyone, who cast a vote in the election based on whether a candidates position on Irish water then they are a myopic fool. In the scheme of things that impact on this country and will effect our future Irish Water is utterly irrelevant. If people voted due to the broader message of the AAA/PBP then that's fair enough; they don't understand economics and are delusional but they are not necessarily stupid. Calling Irish Water a fundamental issue is like calling a disagreement over what colour Taxis should be a fundamental issue.
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The incompetence with which the coalition handled Irish Water is a fundamental issue for me.
How many threads have there been on this website because people couldn't get a straight answer on landlord responsibilities, or what the charges would be, or the stroke that is the water conservation grant, and to top it all off, at the end of the day, they didn't even pass the EU market capitalization test. First we were told it was absolutely essential that Irish Water had our PPS numbers and you were a paranoid crank for saying anything to the contrary. Tens of thousands of people protest all across the country (and not just AAA/PBP voters) and we have an about turn... Of course Irish Water don't need our PPS numbers, but stop asking awkward questions children, we know what's best.

The coalition's attitude to the public was best exemplified by the gigantic two fingers represented by getting Phil Hogan to set the thing up in as arrogant a manner as he possibly could, then swan off on the EU gravy train so constituents couldn't even express their displeasure about it at the ballot box.
The coalition never tried to win public support for the charges, and with every decision they had to make on it, they alienated even more voters.

All of those were self-inflicted own goals by the coalition and was the main reason why I didn't vote for FG after voting for them last time out.
Is anyone who votes AAA\PBP gonna vote FG? Unlikely. But FG lost 1/3 of the people who did vote for them in 2011. I was one of them. Irish Water played a part in that.

I have no reason to believe that FG back in office will not demonstrate the same level of arrogant incompetence.

Irish Water was a litmus test. They failed it.

Consequently, the public contempt for Irish Water is so great, it has taken on a life of its own out of all proportion to the sums involved. For a large number of voters, business as usual when it comes to Irish Water is not acceptable - the FG position. Irish Water can't continue as it is, spending €60 million a year to get net €40 million in revenue. FF want to press the reset button. Otherwise I see no chance of public acceptance of the current Irish Water regime.
 
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Agree with Odyssey06, shear incompetence by FG and Labour on Irish Water is a big issue for me. I signed up when there was a discount for water use by children, that is now gone, I simply do not trust them. What did it for me was "Let's keep the recovery going", well it certainly is not here. I know quite a number of people have cancelled DD to Irish Water since the election. It is too big an issue to go away.
One could stretch the competency issue further to Enda Kenny and his cohort appointments, the HSE, Mr Shatter and Mr Reilly.
 
SBarrett said:
I'm not really into politics but watched some of Claire Byrne's show the other night. A very tired looking Tom McGurk made a very good point that no one can see a difference between the two parties so they should just form a coalition. He told them they were putting their parties before the country... a barb that offends every politician although we all know it to be true.
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In this instance though, I think we should be wary of the sheer level of media pressure being applied.

Did anyone who voted for FF want them to go into coalition with FG? Clearly those FF voters saw a difference.
Did anyone who voted for FG want them to go into coalition with FF? Clearly those FG voters saw a difference.

I'm not clear what the mandate would be for a grand coalition apart from being media annointed?

The people who voted FF & FG were not voting for a coalition. The arithmetic has come out that those are the numbers that make a stable coalition. But that's not a mandate to govern. Something about the spectacle of people who didn't vote FF or FG urging them to go into power sets off an alarm bell for me. I don't hear the same level of pressure coming from people who did vote FF or FG.

SF, AAA/PBP et al are positively jumping with excitement at the thought of a FF\FG coalition. If you knew nothing else about the situation, that should give you pause. There's something to be said (per Eoghan Harris) for having two alternating, democratic centrist parties when you have a shadow like SF looming in the background.
 
Well, based on tonight's news it looks like we'll get a FF/FG coalition or another election!
 
Leo said:
Not sure how this would meet the requirements of Article 9 of the EU Water Framework Directive.



Seems very low when you're talking about thousands of staff.
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The number of employees that may be effected are the 400 staff directly employed by Irish Water , the local authority staff transferred will not be effected in any event.
 
If they can't agree on Irish Water, and want to go into grand coalition together, maybe they should kick the issue to touch with a consultative (i.e. not constitutionally binding) referendum on suspending the charges etc - similar to the 'proposition' type votes you see in other jurisdictions e.g. when cities have to raise taxes to fund an Olympic bid, or new infrastructure, etc
 
odyssey06 said:
The incompetence with which the coalition handled Irish Water is a fundamental issue for me.
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Really?
So the incompetence they showed in managing the health service or the utterly incompetent taxation policies of SF, AAA/PBP or the utter incompetence shown by the last FF government in just about every managerial decision they made is less important?
For you punishing the last government over Irish water and other similar issues is worth risking communists in coalition with the party who destroyed the economy?
Is going back to pro-cyclical populism a price worth paying in order to avoid paying water charges and punishing the arrogance of James Reilly?
The last government was arrogant, high-handed and showed very bad judgement in the fights they picked and how they communicated many of their decisions. In short they were bad at the politics of governance but they were strong on the economic management of the country.

I don't like Enda Kenny. I don't like James Reilly. I don't like many of them but on balance they did a good job on the big issues. I'd rather that than slick and populist and economically incompetent because those are our options.
 
I found it bizarre yesterday that Ruth Coppinger was nominated for Taoiseach and got the predictable handful of votes. But even more bizarre was that Wallace, Daly and Collins didn't vote for her (they were no shows for that vote). And yet she was on the radio this AM saying the people had voted for change and a Left alternative, so she wanted a new election rather than an FG/FF coalition.

Can anyone explain to me why AAA/PBP and Collins/Daly/Wallace would not be supporting each other? Is it Lenin v's Trotsky stuff?
 
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