Ancillary costs regarding a party wall

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thedarkone

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Hi, I would be grateful if someone could confirm my understanding re: party wall costs.

We are in the process of extending our house, and our builder has noted that the party wall (built on the boundary line and constructed before we purchased the house) has no foundations and needs to be taken down and rebuilt, due to the ongoing risk of the wall falling.

In the interests of both time and good neighbourly relations, we are willing to pay for the full cost of the reconstruction of the wall (builder, our engineer, our architect). However, they also have engaged their own architect and engineer to comment on the work.

It is my understanding/interpretation from the Land & Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009 that while they are fully entitled to a reimbursement of their costs for the architect/engineer from me, I am at the same time entitled to offset against that 50% (being my estimate of "the proportionate use or enjoyment of the party structure") of the cost of constructing the wall that I have incurred.

As I expect that 50% of the cost of the wall will greater than their fees, and our builder will make
good any damage caused during the rebuild, am I correct in saying that I am not obliged to pay their fees?
 
I doubt that there is any "obliged" involved. If the wall has been in use for a number of years and now you want to rebuild it they could probably prevent you from doing so. The least you can do is cover the costs, including I would say the cost of them getting independent advice.
 
Thanks Cremeeg for your response.

On what basis are you saying that the could "prevent". Is this your experience?

My reading the Act would suggest the contrary to what you say i.e.
- Section 44.1 says I can carry out works to preserve the structure/carry out works that are exempted development (I believe I satisfy at least two here); and
- worst case I could get a works order under Section 45 if they tried to prevent me from doing so?
 
thedarkone said:
In the interests of both time and good neighbourly relations
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Hmmm ... methinks if you're looking to quote them the precise legislative sections, or present them with fait accompli, you're probably not succeeding with either timeliness or good relations.
 
Taking down and re-building is a little way off preservation work. Are you looking to build onto the party wall?

Have they asked you to cover their expenses?
 
Hi Setanta12, that is a fair point, but some colour: when the lack of foundations was detected , I approached the neighbour - without knowing anything of the law - looking to see if they would go "5050". In return I immediately was quoted the legislation back at me, saying I was fully liable for all costs. While privately I am not so sure, rather than disagree and get involved in a protracted debate about the legislation, I immediately conceded the point on costs and said I would fully pay for the wall "in the interests of both time and good neighbourly relations";) . I've never quoted the legislation back at them, though I have been tempted

@Joe - the wall will be replaced in an identical fashion to what is there in height and materials, just this time with capping and render (both of which they requested), in addition to method statements, various drawings, engineers reports etc also requested and supplied. And this time with foundations! The extension is well set back from the wall, and has full planning permission.

My issue is that since my agreeing to the costs, they have engaged architect and engineer. Hence my original question - my concern is that they come back with a big bill for people that they engaged and I just want to understand my position so I can (gently!) push back if it materialises. If there is ambiguity on the point, and while I don't want to be seen a soft touch, I am likely to agree to reasonable costs; life is too short.
 
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You're neighbour is being a bit cheeky doing all that (particularly the architect) for a simple party wall rebuild. I'd suspect they have connections and are just going to furnish false invoices to extract some money out of you. If it were me, I'd tell them I'd decided not to go ahead as the costs have spiraled. They've no entitlement to reimbursement if the work didn't go ahead.

If you do want to go ahead, and they try to hit you with the bill for their costs, tell them that your offer to cover the build costs was of course conditional on them covering any costs they accrued in the process, and that if they want you to cover 50% of their costs, you are more than happy to offset that amount against the full cost and give them the outstanding total they owe you.
 
Two questions here.

Are we talking about a garden wall, or the wall between semi detached houses, or something in between ?

How long has this wall been in place and have there been any consequences to the lack of foundations thus far ?
 
- No idea (and no evidence) if consultants and neighbour are related but the thought has crossed my mind! - is a boundary wall between gardens/patios. Both houses detached from each other
- have owned the place for two years. The wall is down the side of a house we rarely use and never noticed it. However as builder demonstrated, wall perceptibly moves when pressed against. That is a scary thought.
- hence @Leo threatening to halt the reconstruction is not an option - neighbour holds all the cards unless I go "legal". I have kids that could be in that area (he doesn't) and a builder on site ready to do the job as part of my extension, once he gets the all clear from them (not forthcoming yet). Builder himself also notes its a H&S issue for his workmen when working on the extension so could delay if wall isn't built.

Sounds like no one has experience of the law in this area to assist with original question. Thanks anyway for the replies. Hopefully sense will prevail. Will post after it resolves.
 
Its a garden wall. It has been ok for a number of years, two at least and perhaps many more.

Rather than propping it up, or planting a hedge, you have gotten a builder, an engineer and an architect involved to rebuild a GARDEN wall.

Of course your neighbour has gotten their own Architect. They will need a project manager too. And hey you have children this is clearly a child protection issue, better involve a social worker on each side as well. And a HR professional to manage the staffing issues arising.

And a solicitor on each side, also a barrister because no solicitor will have any experience of this cause no one has ever gone to court over a garden wall before, but the wont stop a barrister giving and charging for an opinion.

Just don't forget a Polish bloke to actually build the wall.
 
Thanks cremeegg for your sarcasm. You clearly have not understood my position that I tried to avoid all of this palaver but could not. I had started to draft a longer reply but then probably realised you are too interested in trolling me than helping. At least we're agreed - its just a garden wall. Trump's wall would be built easier.
 
So in summary, the legislation allows the other party to have the fees of any professionals they engage paid for by the person who wants to carry out the work. They are also entitled to claim 'reasonable compensation for any inconvenience caused by the works'. You must also make good any dame age caused to their property during the works. You in turn are entitled to 'claim contribution from the adjoining owner in respect of the cost of repair and
reduce the amount of any compensation payable to the adjoining landowner to reflect the benefit he or she will gain in the enjoyment of his property by virtue of the works being carried out'

Go talk to them again, ask them what they're thinking re costs and if they say they want you to cover all their costs along with the construction costs, tell them you've had advice that you can claim 50% of all your costs from them as they will enjoy equal benefit from the wall. See if you can come to an amicable solution.

If it were me and they were playing these games, I'd put up a couple of short pillars alongside the wall on my property to ensure that if it falls, there's only one way it can go.
 
thedarkone said:
Thanks cremeegg for your sarcasm. You clearly have not understood my position that I tried to avoid all of this palaver but could not. I had started to draft a longer reply but then probably realised you are too interested in trolling me than helping. At least we're agreed - its just a garden wall. Trump's wall would be built easier.
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Your welcome, if it helped you realise that you have allowed the situation to spiral out of control then it was worth something to you.

You haven't said how long the wall has been there.

If a new neighbour moved in next to me and announced that the garden wall didn't have proper foundations and he wanted to rebuild it I wouldn't be too impressed. If it was a case that the wall had been there for years without incident I would think that he just wanted to make a mountain out of a molehill.
 
cremeegg said:
Your welcome, if it helped you realise that you have allowed the situation to spiral out of control then it was worth something to you.

You haven't said how long the wall has been there.

If a new neighbour moved in next to me and announced that the garden wall didn't have proper foundations and he wanted to rebuild it I wouldn't be too impressed. If it was a case that the wall had been there for years without incident I would think that he just wanted to make a mountain out of a molehill.
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Did you miss the bit where the builder touched the wall and it wobbled?
You seem to be just deliberately going over the top in your replies.
 
If the wall fell overnight surely both parties would have to pay equally to restore it....epecially if it falls into both properties bit by bit
 
I think if the wall was visibly wobbling when touched then it's a good job someone has spotted it now no matter how long it has been there.
 
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