After Retirement

David_Dublin said:
Really interesting discussion. We have 12 and 14 year olds, we're mid 40s. About to do a big job to the house. It's a great house as is, but need a bigger kitchen/utility, another bathroom, and ideally a snug/games room for kids. We love the area and have some great neighbours.

The big job gives us everything we need, but looks like being 300k+. It's our forever home , but based on the above "forever" is now understood to be to mid sixties. Kids will probably be here another 10 years, maybe 20 with college, saving for deposits etc.

At €300k+ I'm continually looking at whether we're mad to do it. I'm not too worried about making our money back, and I think we'll get huge enjoyment out of the additional space and usability. Plus we have to re-wire and insulate, change windows, so a job needs to be done. But it's also good to have this longer plan of moving in mid-sixties to smaller/more appropriate accommodation in mind. If I moved to an apartment I would definitely want it to have outside shared green space. @LondonIrish your parents' setup sounds perfect.
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Hi David_Dublin,

Just on this. We were in a similar situation to yours about 5 years ago. It sounds like you have 2 options. (1) the Fully Monty for 300k or (2) do up the house without extending. If you need to borrow, I would recommend this https://www.theguardian.com/money/loan-repayment-calculator-interest-rates. Put in the difference between (1) and (2) and see how much it will cost every month. We went with option (2) in the end. As it turns out we already have a playroom but the kids rarely use it. It would be nice to have extra space but when you see what it would cost you every month for X number of years it might make you think! Anyway, best of luck with it!

Firefly.
 
David_Dublin said:
Interesting. I don't agree at all. Or maybe it depends on "can get away with".

I think key to living harmoniously with family is having space where you can retreat to. But maybe that reflects badly one me. I like the idea of kids having a room to game in or have friends over to hang out in, while parents have a separate spot to watch telly/read etc. Or one parent to be able to close a door to listen to music, and the other parent to have friends over for a bite to eat or a drink and chat, while the kids are in their own space shouting at the computer games.

I think having three "living areas" is about right for us, family of 4, teenage kids. I don't think that sounds like your idea of "the smallest house you can get away with".


Well, I understand what you mean and "what you can get away with.." sounds like a casual decision rather than the multi-dimensional measured consideration that it was.....in our case.
I have managed pretty much all you've outlined....in a modest 1000sq ft terraced home, so I know it's possible but that might not be desirable for others. My 2 kids are teenagers and have never since complained about the trampoline we didn't get or the skip we didn't need later to put it in.....or the cow we didn't get because they like milk.
If downsizing may be of concern to you, then consider not upsizing. I do business in this upsizing space. I am not envious of the purchasing power of my customers. They are all nice people spending their money in their way. Sometimes I find that they're looking around wondering what can I buy next? As @Gordongekko disparagingly referred to it in another thread "feathering some builders nest".
You would be surprised at how even the smallest house feels empty when there's only 2 of you there (or 1). Covid has kept homes full for the last 18 months or so. But send your teens out,tidy the house, put on the Beatles "she's leaving home" imagine the teens won't be back and THEN see how big your house is.
Ownership is an illusion. We have custody of things and we're just passing through. I wouldn't want this to come across as an abstemious viewpoint. If large spacious homes and gardens are for you, then go for it. When I give people more space, they fill it. Without fail.
We've entertained at Xmas, New Year's,BBQs, book clubs, birthdays, come-dine-with-me , around the 20 people mark. It's not perfect but that's part of the memory.....even if you can load the dishwasher from your dining chair.......
This is not a recipe, only an opinion.....just in case there's any doubt..
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For us Covid and lockdown has put an end to any vague ideas we had about downsizing. We have a larger house and garden than just 2 old folks need at normal times, but these are not normal times so the extra space is invaluable. We've had quite a few house moves over the years so we are staying put. When we are no longer able to maintain this house and garden, hopefully there will always be younger people around who would like a little part time job helping us out. The other advantage is our other adult children and grandchildren live nearby, having also lived in Dublin and abroad earlier in their lives.
We are close enough to walk to the shops (choice of 3 large supermarkets) and 2 of them deliver if required.
We consider it an advantage to live outside Dublin in a small town with good transport links to the city centre and Airport. Our daughter lives close to the Airport so any late night flights have an overnight with her.
I love the freedom of retirement and doing things on the spur of the moment. Hop on the bus, a walk on the beach, meet a friend for coffee, book a cheap flight. The secret to it all is to have the health to enjoy it.
 
Great post Black Sheep.

This is Askaboutmoney, so we do focus on financial wellbeing, but it’s also vital that people invest in their physical wellbeing also.

Movement, Movement, Movement at a minimum.

There’s not much point in having a big pension and plenty of money in the bank, but being unable to do anything.
 
Gordon Gekko said:
Great post Black Sheep.

This is Askaboutmoney, so we do focus on financial wellbeing, but it’s also vital that people invest in their physical wellbeing also.

Movement, Movement, Movement at a minimum.

There’s not much point in having a big pension and plenty of money in the bank, but being unable to do anything.
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So very true.
 
LondonIrish said:
become used to wearing 2-3 layers of clothing inside during cold snaps. To me this seems like a meagre and depressing retirement but they have a big garden that they like to potter about in and seem quite content.
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I love our house in the summer. Lots of rooms and room in them. East/West facing. Sun in the morning in our kitchen. On a very hot day we can retreat to the other side of the house for a bit of shade and coolness. Nice garden. Parking for up to 5 cars. Garage. I can get lost easily enough if needs be.
Four of our bedrooms still contain the belongings of our flown the nest children. We have become a storage space for them. Museum quality. One room full of toys for the grand children.
In the winter time it is a cold house. We don't switch on the radiators in the spare bedrooms plus a couple of reception rooms. We don't really need to use these rooms other than to stroll in to occasionally. So for 6 months of the year our house shrinks down to a few rooms.

Not sure what to do.
 
I see the indo is running a headline today about tax incentives and grants to encourage people to downsize. Details to be announced in next months Housing for all Plan.

I think downsizing would be more popular if there was a property available next door. Downsizing often requires moving to new areas which is a challenge in later years of life, unless moving closer to family etc. I don't know if there are many developments in the country that cater to older age groups? Apartment blocks tend to be transient, and having lived in them for most of my adult life they are incomparable to the sense of community I've found since moving to the burbs.
 
Dublinbay12 said:
I see the indo is running a headline today about tax incentives and grants to encourage people to downsize. Details to be announced in next months Housing for all Plan.

I think downsizing would be more popular if there was a property available next door. Downsizing often requires moving to new areas which is a challenge in later years of life, unless moving closer to family etc. I don't know if there are many developments in the country that cater to older age groups? Apartment blocks tend to be transient, and having lived in them for most of my adult life they are incomparable to the sense of community I've found since moving to the burbs.
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Intuitively, it is something that makes sense.

  1. We form family units, we have children - we live in a big house
  2. Those children grow up, they leave the big house the big house now only has two people living in it.
  3. Those children start having children themselves, they need a big house - but many of the existing stock of big houses are occupied by their parent's generation

From a resourcing perspective, it is highly inefficient to have small older family units (of 1 or 2 people) living in these big houses while younger families are searching for suitable housing themselves.
The trick (which our government appears to have missed) would appear to be a strategy that would encourage older people to sell their big houses (if they want to!) and downsize to suitable smaller units that are optimised for older people.

If we could solve this one, it would free up a lot of family houses for actual families that need them - and house older people in units suitable to their needs.

I can't see our government ever tackling this but it does seem to me to be one of the great unspoken debates in our housing crisis...I wonder what they do in other countries?
 
We've had this same mantra about incentives for old folk to downsize with very few practical ideas on offer. As I've already said above our house is bigger than required but the options of downsizing are not attractive. We could buy a standard 3 bed semi in the same area,for just a little less than the sale price of our own so no pot of gold to be had. Houses in the same area sell at roughly the same price regardless of condition or even size. I think this is common to all housing estates. Perhaps we have learned a lot about ourselves during Lockdown and don't need the pot of gold. We come from that generation that were good with money management and can have a good lifestyle on pension.

A friend widow sold her 4 bed house 2 years ago and went to live with her daughter temporarily while her new 2 bed was being built. Problems with planning, water and of course Covid has meant she is nowhere near moving in and the stress has been dreadful. Stress is the thing to avoid at all costs
 
Black Sheep said:
We've had this same mantra about incentives for old folk to downsize with very few practical ideas on offer. As I've already said above our house is bigger than required but the options of downsizing are not attractive. We could buy a standard 3 bed semi in the same area,for just a little less than the sale price of our own so no pot of gold to be had. Houses in the same area sell at roughly the same price regardless of condition or even size. I think this is common to all housing estates. Perhaps we have learned a lot about ourselves during Lockdown and don't need the pot of gold. We come from that generation that were good with money management and can have a good lifestyle on pension.

A friend widow sold her 4 bed house 2 years ago and went to live with her daughter temporarily while her new 2 bed was being built. Problems with planning, water and of course Covid has meant she is nowhere near moving in and the stress has been dreadful. Stress is the thing to avoid at all costs
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Fully understand.

Just to give you where I'm coming from - I live in a 'good' area of Dublin, we're in our mid 40s with 3 kids.
On our road there are 20 houses, only three of those have children living in them and the rest are all owned by older people, who mostly purchased the houses as new in the 1970s.

In the midst of a housing crisis, this just seems like a chronic misuse of resources.

Please don't misunderstand my post as 'old people should be kicked out of their family homes!'. I just think we should have a sensible housing policy that covers the ability to right size your housing needs for your stage of life. As you point out, even if you wanted to, this doesn't exist in most areas.
 
Truffade said:
From a resourcing perspective, it is highly inefficient to have small older family units (of 1 or 2 people) living in these big houses while younger families are searching for suitable housing themselves.
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Will the younger upcoming family be able to afford the bigger houses owned by the older generation or will it be the select few who will be able to purchase?
 
IsleOfMan said:
Will the younger upcoming family be able to afford the bigger houses owned by the older generation or will it be the select few who will be able to purchase?
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In theory, more supply of family homes (via older people downsizing) should lead to lower prices.

But as we all know, the normal laws of supply and demand seem to operate on a more unusual plane when it comes to the Irish housing market!
 
Leper said:
I don't apologise to anybody for where I live. We've worked hard since we were sixteen to get to where we are.

I didn't create the housing shortage crisis. Talk to those who did and leave us Empty Nesters enjoy what we earned and through much sacrifice.
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You seem to be taking personal offence at a general suggestion. It's not aimed at you. Relax. :)

You don't need, or want to, downsize - great, stay in your house.
Don't you think though that for the overall good of our society, it would be good to create a proper downsizing option for those older people who might like to avail of it?
 
Dublinbay12 said:
I see the indo is running a headline today about tax incentives and grants to encourage people to downsize
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I really don't think there is any need to incentivise empty nesters to downsize.

In my experience, there are plenty of empty nesters that actually want to move from 4/5-bed suburban houses built in the 70s/80s to new build 2/3-bed, A-rated homes, in reasonably close proximity to their friends/family and within walking distance of relevant amenities and good public transport links.

However, identifying such a property is a real challenge in most "mature" suburban neighbourhoods.

The problem, IMO, is the shortage of suitable homes to downsize to - not a lack of incentives to do so.
 
Sarenco said:
I really don't think there is any need to incentivise empty nesters to downsize.

In my experience, there are plenty of empty nesters that actually want to move from 4/5-bed suburban houses built in the 70s/80s to new build 2/3-bed, A-rated homes, in reasonably close proximity to their friends/family and within walking distance of relevant amenities and good public transport links.

However, identifying such a property is a real challenge in most "mature" suburban neighbourhoods.

The problem, IMO, is the shortage of suitable homes to downsize to - not a lack of incentives to do so.
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You're right in the lack of suitable 'downsizable' accomodation.

I think though, in terms of incentivization, if ever there was a time to incentivize downsizing - in order to achieve the policy goal of making some badly-needed family homes available, this is the time. And I say that as someone who would be generally against government intervention in markets.
 
So are the government going to create another issue in the housing crisis? They are going to incentivise Empty nesters to sell their house and put them in competition with first time buyers for A-rated 2/3 bedroom new builds?

This is assuming that especially in Dublin those Empty Nesters have homes that are only affordable by a select few whilst the incentives increase the number of people looking for what are traditionally known as 'starter homes'. These
 
Truffade said:
You seem to be taking personal offence at a general suggestion. It's not aimed at you. Relax. :)

You don't need, or want to, downsize - great, stay in your house.
Don't you think though that for the overall good of our society, it would be good to create a proper downsizing option for those older people who might like to avail of it?
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I absolutely agree that it would. Noone should be forced out of their house but social policy should address overall social good.

The turnover in house ownership is far too low. It is clearly not a social good for older retired singles and couples to be pottering around big houses in high demand central locations while young people live in shoes boxes and have to commute hours daily for work. The value of those houses has risen by multiples of inflation over the several decades that the current owners have lived in them. Sure they paid for them but most of the added value is there because of other reasons that have nothing to do with them personally - eg, general economic growth, increase in services in urban locations, lack of available land to provide more houses in central locations, and, yes, lack of turnover in housing as needs change.

At the same time the demands on general government spend to cater for the health and social care needs of an expanding elderly generation is ever increasing. This additional cost should not be completely, or largely, thrown back on the working younger people - particularly as they are being priced out of the housing market.

In terms of incentives, I think these should not be aimed specifically at subsidising downsizers. However, there may be a case to be made at subsidising developments that might be more suitable to the needs of an older and aging demographic, eg, in terms of adapted developments and the provision of health and social care hubs in such developments. I am not speaking of supported living developments per se but developments that have some resource provision so that people can be reassured that there are resources nearby if they should ever need them.

I suggest that one primary way the issue could be addressed is through the tax system and, particularly, property tax. It is ridiculously low. Obviously this should not be aimed specifically at older people. But if taxes were pitched at an appropriate level generally it may well incentivise many to move if they no longer require a central location, or empty rooms and hard to maintain gardens. Perhaps some combination of site value and location and property size, if this is not too complex. If the property tax on some of these houses was to be say €7000 rather than €700 (etc) then people may consider that moving is a more attractive proposition? Higher turnover and better (social) use of this housing stock may have a cooling effect on prices also. By all means widen or otherwise adjust the income tax bands at the same time - although some of the money will be needed for the care needs of the elderly anyway.

I don't think it will be possible to achieve this by providing alternative accomodation for people but without some change in location. The incentives for alternative developments could well be in smaller urban developments away from the centres of larger cities - or away from larger cities. Again noone should be forced to move but attractive developments combined with tax incentives/ disincentives might tempt many. Perhaps even an LPT exemption? And increasing demand should increase supply in less costly locations. The best time to move but would be around retirement when people could well build new social networks - not when they are becoming infirm or dependent.

Nothing personal folks! I am of this demographic myself but trying to think of it from a social point of view rather than purely personal.
 
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Nothing Personal my you-know-what! - Right! Let's line up everybody over 55 who owns his/her home and issue them with the following:-
1. You own your home which is too big for you, according to us, You have no say whatsoever and we're turfing you out to make way for somebody who doesn't own his/her own home.
2. You can go and live in a smaller home of our decision where you should be delighted in making way for the new crop of upwardly mobile individuals.
3. If you decided not to vacate, your property tax will increase by 500%.
4. Please Mr Leper, no arguments, just relax and get out now!

I didn't qualify for a grant for our first home, applying for local authority housing was out of the question and also the same for a local authority loan, our bank kept us on 12 months bridging loan before the mortgage was made available to us thereby increasing our repayments by one year, and then we had to contend with interest rates of up to 19.75%, Mrs Lep was obliged to give up work on marriage (Public Service Decree), our offspring didn't qualify for 3rd Level Grants because of my income, I'm still awaiting my 2nd Covid AZ Vaccine while everybody I know (younger and older than me) is fully vaccinated for several weeks. You see, these people would be moaning to their elected representatives if they weren't winning at bingo. Why should I complain about being turfed out of the home we paid dearly for?
 
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