Accountancy Fees

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widebody

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I know these types of posts are a pain but we're looking to change accountants and the quotes we're getting are ridiculously varied.

Our company does about 600k per annum, we do all our own computerised book-keeping, VAT returns and P30/35. We give our accountants a USB key annually with our accounts, they provide us with unaudited final accounts and adjustments. They also do the 2 x directors personal tax returns, which are very basic. All other queries are billed.

What would be a fair price for the above?

Many thanks in advance for any info/experiences.
 
Thanks Paddy. Bank is reconciled are we get 20-30 adjustments to line up our accounts with their system. Usually the adjustments just move items between codes.
 
Impossible to answer this without even the most basic information, eg nature of business, volume and profile of transactions, number of employees, exposure to VAT/RCT etc, tax and company law compliance history, etc.
 
My experience at the moment is that there is a lot of "extra capacity" among accountants and most of them will bite your hand off for any sort of work.
I think you shouldnt have any trouble in finding a good and competent Accountant who will do it for 500 euro..

When I was a young Accountant many moons ago, Accountants were fewer in numbers and commanded much higher fees. Unfortunately the supply and demand curver has shifted dramatically since then in favor of the client

Look for a young dynamic person building a business.

Avoid the fat cats.
 
Importer said:
My experience at the moment is that there is a lot of "extra capacity" among accountants and most of them will bite your hand off for any sort of work.
I think you shouldnt have any trouble in finding a good and competent Accountant who will do it for 500 euro..
...
Look for a young dynamic person building a business.
Click to expand...

They won't be young, dynamic nor building a business for too much longer if they're willing to take on accounts preparation, CT1 returns and CRO compliance assignments for a €600k turnover firm for the princely sum of €500.
 
T McGibney said:
They won't be young, dynamic nor building a business for too much longer if they're willing to take on accounts preparation, CT1 returns and CRO compliance assignments for a €600k turnover firm for the princely sum of €500.
Click to expand...


Totall agree - not a chance of getting all that done correctly for €500.

Impossible to give any sort of figure based on the info provided.

Call around a few accountants, meet them, ask them to submit their quotes for your business.
 
Shopping around on the basis of quotes is largely a waste of time - it may (or may not) get you a cheap price but it will be no indicator of reliability, independence or the common sense wisdom one should expect from a professional service provider. Best option is to get recommendations from trusted friends & contacts, and work from there.
 
To minimise these types of questions, would it be possible to do a typical quote for "model" company or series of companies?

Company type:
Limited company
wholesale Distribution (some industries would be dearer e.g. construction)
two directors and shareholders
turnover €1m
Profitable
Employs a bookkeeper who does the paye, vat, bank reconciliations etc

Fee for
Prepare final accounts
statutory audit
Corporation Tax returns
Companies Office returns

€1,000 - €2,000

Factors which push up costs towards the higher end
Problems or errors in bookkeeping
Delay in providing information
Accounting issues - e.g. valuation of stocks or debtors
Tax planning issues
Tax problems
Poor financial knowledge or experience of directors
History of tax or other problems
Complex company structure e.g. subsidiaries
solvency issues

Fee for directors' tax returns : €300 - €500 each Assumes salaries the main source of income

Factors which push up fees
Other income e.g. rental profits to be calculated
Delivering information on 15th October
Lots of questions
 
Brendan,

The seriousness & complexity of statutory audit means that you won't get an €1m company audit (including accounts preparation and the extras) done for €2k unless major corners are being cut.

Factors which push up costs towards the higher end - some more:
Multiple bank accounts with frequent inter-account transfers.
Multiple loans, leases, HP agreements.
Frequent foreign currency transactions.
Large numbers of cheques being written.
Limited or poor notation on bank debits or accounting system entries.
Large volumes of small-value transactions.
Discrepancies within debtors or creditors control accounts.
Exposure to RCT and/or technical VAT issues.
'Employee or contractor' grey areas & related issues.
Directors personal transactions run through company.
Non-compliance with Revenue requirements re motor & subsistence payments.
Non-achievement of industry-standard gross margins.
Existence of fraud risk indicators.
Going concern issues.
Frequent related party transactions.
"Difficult personality" directors or key position employees.
Autocratic culture within the company.
Tight time deadlines for completion.
 
Thanks very much for the replies.

In our case, we have a very simple structure.

Limited company
2 x directors, one 100% other 0%
6 employees
600k turnover
1 bank account
No additional income
No involvement with accountants during the year (any queries are billed)
We give them USB key, they send list of required paperwork
2-3 phonecalls and accounts arrive
Provision of Statutory Financial Statements
Provision and filing of Abriged Financial Statements
Draft Corporation Tax Computations
Capital Allowance Computations
Form CT1
Review of Revenue Notices of Assessment
Preliminary tax notices
Directors Personal Income tax return
List of adjustments

I'm more of a quality rather than quantity man myself, hence we're with a big enough company. However it's slash and burn time, and fees are on the table.

Many thanks.
 
T McGibney said:
Brendan,

The seriousness & complexity of statutory audit means that you won't get an €1m company audit (including accounts preparation and the extras) done for €2k unless major corners are being cut.

.
Click to expand...

Hi Tommy

I had just put that figure in as part of an example. Not a suggestion. Would €10k to €20k be more appropriate?

Your post is a good basis of a Key Post "How to reduce your accountancy costs"

I had forgotten the key one.
Get your Companies Office returns in on time and avoide the need for a statutory audit.

Brendan
 
widebody said:
Thanks very much for the replies.

In our case, we have a very simple structure.

Limited company
2 x directors, one 100% other 0%
6 employees
600k turnover
1 bank account
No additional income
No involvement with accountants during the year (any queries are billed)
We give them USB key, they send list of required paperwork
2-3 phonecalls and accounts arrive
Provision of Statutory Financial Statements
Provision and filing of Abriged Financial Statements
Draft Corporation Tax Computations
Capital Allowance Computations
Form CT1
Review of Revenue Notices of Assessment
Preliminary tax notices
Directors Personal Income tax return
List of adjustments

I'm more of a quality rather than quantity man myself, hence we're with a big enough company. However it's slash and burn time, and fees are on the table.

Many thanks.
Click to expand...


What software do you usefor your book-keeping?
 
Minimum of €1,500 plus VAT assuming everything is smooth. Previous figure of €500 - run a mile. Whoever would be doing this would be getting paid less than the minimum wage after all costs, database maintenance and such like are paid. Whilst high prizes dont guarantee quality, very low prizes should set alarm bells ringing.
 
Interesting info.
Im sole trader, tiny turnover - though things picking up, (approx 45k)
Last year had a loss of 5k (due to accident),
I prepare day books and bank rec., then give these to accountant. Up to last year I was being charged 1200 - 1400 k excl vat per year. (TB, set of a/ cs & form 11).
I had "deep" discussion with accountant last year & got the bill down to 950 + vat.
I have just discovered that this was for an income and expenditure account and not a complete set of accounts.
Therefore this year I have no Trial Balance etc.,

As a result of my accident last year, my med 1 were very high, I was late with my VAT returns (and when sent in - I got a refund of 30 euro). This I believe led to a full revenue audit, which I dealt with my self.
The accounts involvement with audit involved returning a confirmation email acknowledging tax appointment, and a three hour review of y/e 9 and 10s accounts.
The audit was held in my house over 2 days. Nerve racking however everything went ok - no serious anomolies other that a can of red bull on a diesel receipt.
I subsequently got a bill of 2,200 for the accountants involvement in the revenue audit.
The question I have to ask - At what stage do these people realise that the gravy train is over?

The fee above of 1,500, puts into perspective my fees.
I will be doing my own from now on.
 
We pay our accountants listed below for a same size company to Wideboy, the only difference is 3 directors returns. Also use Tas Books v3

There is zero interaction all year with the accountant firm, we just hand him our completed TB and Balance Sheet, never any adjustments required.

All we do is sign the prepared Companies Office submission and Personal tax returns.

Corporation Taxation 450.00
Secretarial Services 550.00
Income Taxation 600.00
Accounts Preparation 1,350.00
Outlay - CRO 40.00

Total 2990
 
widebody said:
Thanks very much for the replies.

In our case, we have a very simple structure.

Limited company
2 x directors, one 100% other 0%
6 employees
600k turnover
1 bank account
No additional income
No involvement with accountants during the year (any queries are billed)
We give them USB key, they send list of required paperwork
2-3 phonecalls and accounts arrive
Provision of Statutory Financial Statements
Provision and filing of Abriged Financial Statements
Draft Corporation Tax Computations
Capital Allowance Computations
Form CT1
Review of Revenue Notices of Assessment
Preliminary tax notices
Directors Personal Income tax return
List of adjustments

I'm more of a quality rather than quantity man myself, hence we're with a big enough company. However it's slash and burn time, and fees are on the table.

Many thanks.
Click to expand...

I'd guess you'd be looking at about €2k - €3k plus vat, depending on the firm and quality of records. If the records are as good as you say i'd imagine it would be more towards the €2k mark.

As others have said if you get a quote of €500, you've got to ask yourself what work are they actually doing for that. No way is someone going to spend ages ensuring all the disclosures in the full and abridged accounts comply with CRO requirements for that price (i'd bet they ll post the T/B and run off the financial statements there and then less adjustments and tailored disclosures). No accountant wants to work for less than minimum wage having spent 4+ years studying to become a professional and get a qualification.

Anyway if you are near D9 and want a quote or to chat, send me a PM.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Hi Tommy

I had just put that figure in as part of an example. Not a suggestion. Would €10k to €20k be more appropriate?

Your post is a good basis of a Key Post "How to reduce your accountancy costs"

I had forgotten the key one.
Get your Companies Office returns in on time and avoide the need for a statutory audit.

Brendan
Click to expand...

I'd suggest more €4k to €8k, again depending on all the factors previously mentioned. More than €10k would be crazy.

The need to fill out a PQA, prepare detailed planning and completion memo's and carry out on site testing of sales, purchases etc push costs up but not to that degree.

If the firm is familiar with performing audits most of the extra disclosure will come naturally enough.
 
I am operating a small/medium business (sole trader) with about 10 staff.The business has a turnover of about 900k.
I have inhouse book keeper who prepares everything for accountant. He has come back to me with a bill of €5000 for end of year returns. Am about to fall off my chair. He will not negotiate nor justify the bill. I am at a loss as to what I can do. Please advise.
 
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