9" Hollow Blocks - external versus internal insulation

M

MAJJ

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Hi Folks,

I know this topic has been described many times but here I go with a few more questions.

House is 3 bed semi d, 30 years old and the gable side the coldest spot. I am cognisant of the other angles to tackle re: boiler, tcv,draughts, double glazing, attic and have read through this and the and also spoke to independent advisors via the sei. Really good service.

I had planned on getting cavity wall insulation (beads) I have since found out that the house has 9" hollow blocks and this option is not suitable and neither is cavity foam insulation - despite certain supplier’s willingness to flog it.

I have been told independently (and read here and elsewhere) that external insulation is the best option with internal insulation the next best option. I am quite concerned with the caveats and costs around these and in particular the external option.

Does anyone have direct experience with either of these options (external/internal) and can they advise me on the :

the method they used
the costs involved
the supplier and contact details
what they learned
what they would do differently
was it worth it

I'll be surprised that this topic won't receive interest as there must be a great deal of people in the same situation as me? Living in Dublin, house with this block work and looking to take sensible energy efficient decisions.



I have also tried the [broken link removed] but couldn't decipher the lists and it applicability to my needs. Great for Cavity wall insulation though.



Thanks in advance for any help as it is always appreciated.
MAJJ
 
the simplest solution is apply bonded insulation plasterboard to the internal side of the gable. contact kingspan for advise on specification. 0429795000. any other way would be too costly, in comparison
 
Hollow blocks in a gable wall? I'm pretty sure this would have been against the building regulations even 30 years ago, but if you've got them, there's not much you can do about it now, I suppose. I agree that internal insulation with insulated plasterboard is probably the best way from a practical point of view, especially on a semi-D. Put on the thickest boards you can, although it's going to cut into your usable living space unfortunately.
 
Im not sure if kingspan sell to the public, i know they wont deal with builders. Builders have to buy kingspan product through an agent. If you ring insulation companies ( such as Energy Saver, U Value Insulations) they will advise you as to different methods.

In your case i would definetly go with the insulated board to the inside of your wall. You could go for the composite board ( plasterboard with insulation stuck on it) or dryline the wall. Either way it would be far cheaper than insulating the outside of the wall
 
In other words the builders were allowed get away with it if the architect was looking the other way? :)
 
Mandatory Insulating of the external walls only came in on ist July 1979, I remember it well cos my first house was purchased in November 1978, and only completed in March 1979, never heard of insulation till July 1979 !
 
Hi Folks,

Many thanks to you all for your responses to date.

Ludermor - Energy Saver, U Value Insulations - I have tried searching but the words are quite generic and bring back a lot of hits. Would you have contact details for these companies to hand? Thanks.

Anyone else out there with direct experience and recommendations of suppliers? I would appreciate your input.

Thanks,
MAJJ
 
Energy Saver
Phone 01 4600250
Contact Tony Higgins

U Value
Phone 01 8365299
Contact Joe McEvoy
 
Just my tuppence worth but to my knowledge (and certainly last time I checked) there are no external insulating and finishing systems (EIS as these systems are technically called) that have an Irish Agrement Certificate- which is why these systems are not approved by Homebond. I'm no big fan of Homebond- but if EIS aren't good enough for them i'd be more inclined to look at the reasons why. EIS systems are a quick fix solution which are not suited to our climate- driving rain and high levels of precipitation are not kind to these systems. Surface crazing can allow minute amounts of water to penetrate the insulation, this combined with freeze/ thaw action can lead to a rapid disintegration of the render and insulation over time. Also mechanical damage is a huge problem- if damage isn't properly repaired and done so quickly water ingress will accellerate the breakdown of the system.
 
Carpenter said:
Just my tuppence worth but to my knowledge (and certainly last time I checked) there are no external insulating and finishing systems (EIS as these systems are technically called) that have an Irish Agrement Certificate- which is why these systems are not approved by Homebond. I'm no big fan of Homebond- but if EIS aren't good enough for them i'd be more inclined to look at the reasons why. EIS systems are a quick fix solution which are not suited to our climate- driving rain and high levels of precipitation are not kind to these systems. Surface crazing can allow minute amounts of water to penetrate the insulation, this combined with freeze/ thaw action can lead to a rapid disintegration of the render and insulation over time. Also mechanical damage is a huge problem- if damage isn't properly repaired and done so quickly water ingress will accellerate the breakdown of the system.
Click to expand...

Hi Carpenter

Under European law CE certification superceeds an Irish Agrement Cert and a lot of the EIS systems even have German DIN and Finnish certification which are much stricter than CE certification. I heard lately about the tests that they do in Russia on these products
(40 rain/freeze/thaw cycles in 30 mins). It seems most of the Scandinavian EIS systems are resistant to +- 30 degree temperature fluctuations.
We have used this system constantly over the last four years and have never had any callbacks due to damage, its very resistant.
If you put cement plaster through such tests it would crack all over.
The insulation behind the plaster makes it flexible like the front bumper of a car.
It can take certain impact but if you drive a truck into any wall it will cause damage.
We do not sell or market any EIS products we just use them.
2 inches of insulation on the outside of your house is better than 4 inches inside.
 
Viking
An IAB cert would give me more peace of mind and an assurance that a particular product was suitable for use in the Irish market. A product or system that performs well in Germany (to DIN standards etc) may not translate in terms of performance in the Irish context. Our expectations of building performance, maintenance cycles etc are very different from our European neighbours. And if you want Homebond approval you can forget about EIS- unless you can produce an IAB cert.
 
Carpenter said:
Viking
An IAB cert would give me more peace of mind and an assurance that a particular product was suitable for use in the Irish market. A product or system that performs well in Germany (to DIN standards etc) may not translate in terms of performance in the Irish context. Our expectations of building performance, maintenance cycles etc are very different from our European neighbours. And if you want Homebond approval you can forget about EIS- unless you can produce an IAB cert.
Click to expand...


Hi Carpenter

Coyle Hamilton Premier Homebond who now have over 40% of the Irish market and are recognised by all the major banks approve the EIS system because they recognise the certification bodies in Europe.
They also don't have any vested interest in keeping the concrete industry in operation.

We don't get that many days that are minus zero in Ireland, you could count them on one hand.
In Central Europe and Scandinavia in the Spring time they regularly have days with temperature fluctuations of up to 30 degrees with rain during the day.
If on such rainy days some water got through the external insulation/plaster and if it frooze that night to say minus 10 then the ice would pull the plaster/insulation completly away from the house.
If these EIS systems didn''t work in such extreme conditions then they would never have got certification.
These systems have compliance certification in the West coast of Norway and Scotland.

The 9 inch cavity wall is passed by Homebond and many people are aware of its limitations and Homebond ignore the Thermal Looping problem which is impossible to avoid with the Partial fill cavity wall.

You only need one day of water ingress in Germany or Scandinavia followed by a hard nights frost to test these systems. If only a little bit of water gets into the house in these countries in severe weather then it can do untold damage.
The weather in Ireland is much milder so the demands on these products are a lot less.

For example the German Poroton block now has an Agreament cert but Homebond still don't have a section in their manual about it because it is not a concrete product.
The 9 inch cavity block wall with cement plaster or the partial fill cavity wall, never had DIN certification in Germany or SE certification in Sweeden. Those systems were tried and scrapped in those parts of the world 40 years ago. They also can't understand why we are putting concrete walls around our Timber Frame houses, they ask me if we in Ireland are trying to cool down our houses in the Winter time.
 
Viking,
Fair enough I accept a lot of what you are saying but only time will tell whether these newer systems will perform well in our climate, with our paricular skills base etc. I've no vested interest in promoting concrete building but concrete built housing is a proven "technology" in this country- even hollow blockwork, although this is obviously a cheap alternative to the superior cavity wall construction. As for the Premier Homebond scheme- isn't this really just an insurance product, all's well now while they're selling cover and faults and claims have yet to surface, sometime in the future. At least Homebond offer some technical backup and an inspection service and once again they have some track record. I'm no apologist for Homebond either but the only vested interest I think they have is to minimise the number of possible claims under homes covered by their warranty. This they do by limitating cover to dwellings which are built using technologies and materials that are tried and tested in the Irish market. If suppliers and manufacturers have a product which they believe is suitable for the Irish market the onus is on them to make a case with IAB and Homebond.
 
There is no doubt that concrete is a strong material that won't fall down easily. But that's about all you can say for it. It's extremely environmentally unfriendly to produce and has lousy inherent insulation properties. Sure, it's tried and tested. But times have changed and there is no good reason to stick with it except that it's what builders are used to. People in the building industry (including architects and engineers) will have to be more flexible in providing the energy-efficient buildings that people are starting to look for now and will demand even more in the coming years.
 
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