4 years to investigate a complaint against a nurse

[browtal]

It would be interesting to understand the logic behind the nursing board taking 4 years to investigate a complaint against a nurse.
The person in question was questioned about a misdemeanour while working in the hospital where she is employed. She was notified that an investigation would follow. Now four years later no follow up has happened. In the meantime she has had her registration renewed each year.
I cannot understand if the registration is renewed what does that mean? Is the nurse deemed fit to continue in her role? Who will guarantee the safety of the patients during the intervening time when no action is taken.
Where is the safety of the patient considered. Where is the justice in taking four years to investigate while renewing the licence of the nurse concerned.
Is there any justice for the patients or the nurse? What type of organisation works in this manner.

It would be interesting to know if anybody has experience of a similar situation. Browtal

 

[Leper]

Interesting post by Browtal. I have worked in hospitals and know nurses whose registration was challenged. I'm not getting into the realm of who is right and who is wrong. But, I will try to answer questions posed:-

1. Anybody is entitled to make an allegation against a nurse. It may be a patient, family member or legal representative. Allegations must be made in writing. Depending on the nature of the complaint, the nurse can be immediately suspended (on full pay) pending an investigation. If it's a serious allegation and the investigation proves that a nurse was negligent causing death, serious injury, etc the nurse will be "struck off" and pay stopped. The nurse may never work as a nurse again.

2. What can delay investigation procedure?:- If after the incident the nurse claims she is suffering distress, sick, etc she cannot be interviewed or pressed on the allegations. After sick leave ends the enquiry may continue.

3. After the sick leave procedure has ceased, it is possible that the nurse will not return to work. Let's say correspondence between employer and nurse is ignored. Then a dismissal procedure begins. This can take quite some time depending on correspondence etc.

4. We live in a litigious society. Compensation claims, truth, registration, law, honour etc are involved. These take time.

 

[Purple]

It would be interesting to understand the logic behind the nursing board taking 4 years to investigate a complaint against a nurse.

Self regulation. That's why.

 

[noproblem]

I Would have thought it impossible to answer without knowing what the so called misdemeanour is.

 

[llgon]

Self regulation. That's why.

A 23 member board, 8 of whom are registered nurses/midwives. Is that self regulation?

 

[Leper]

I don't blame Purple for trying to be as cynical as me (or should I have said "as I" ?). But, to bring the subject back to some kind of reality I should point out that a nurse/midwife who has been unfairly placed in front of an enquiry which could jeopardise her/his career would not relish a four year wait for clearance. Similarly, the patient who has had answerable complaints should not have to wait four years for resolution. Whatever way you look at the present course it is too slow and the adage "justice delayed is justice denied" is relevant.

I don't care if the board membership is made up of 23 or 123 people, four years is far too long for anybody to wait. It takes four years for a nurse to achieve qualification from university; I see no sense in any enquiry lasting that amount of time.

 

[browtal]

The nurse in question was accused of taking drugs. While she was a patient in the hospital where she worked she was found to have
drugs in her possession from the hospital. Her admittance had nothing to do with her depression. She had injected herself with an anaesthetic drug and was recovered by staff. She was encouraged to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital where she stayed for one week. Following the assessment she was discharged with report saying she was not an addict.

She had been through a long period of depression during which she was put on leave by the hospital. Her recovery was far from complete and this was well known to the staff with whom she worked.
There is a question as why nobody assisted her to get help during that long period of a couple of years. She worked in a very responsible part of the hospital and many would think she was not fit to work during part of that time.
She Would welcome any help? She is desperate for a conclusion and return to work. In the meantime she has had treatment and her depression is under control with ongoing treatment.
Her confidence is low! Help

 

[Leper]

Things are becoming clearer with Browtal's post. Perhaps it is time I should add a little more information on how hospitals are run:-

1. I have yet to meet a nurse/midwife who would deliberately put their registration into question. If a nurse loses the registration, all is lost and whatever comes with it including litigation, reputation, recognition etc.

2. Hospitals are strange places where if any incident occurs (and they occur on a frequent basis) or even could occur (near miss) an Incident Report form must be completed giving full details of what happened or could have happened, witnesses, the result of what happened and what steps were to be taken to ensure the same could not occur again. Such forms take some time to complete and administer.

3. A team of medical staff (including nurses) know their obligations regarding patient care, safety etc. If one member of the team is say under-performing leading to under-care of patients, they are obliged to complete an Incident Report. Non completion appears to be a cover-up. Therefore, there is pressure on all staff concerned. Possibility of loss of registration is the trigger. Therefore, the staff member in question is alone.

 

[browtal]

Leper, any thanks for your kind replies. Could I make contact with you privately to give you further information and clarify her position. Very grateful regards browtal

 

[Purple]

3. A team of medical staff (including nurses) know their obligations regarding patient care, safety etc. If one member of the team is say under-performing leading to under-care of patients, they are obliged to complete an Incident Report. Non completion appears to be a cover-up. Therefore, there is pressure on all staff concerned. Possibility of loss of registration is the trigger. Therefore, the staff member in question is alone.

You must be joking.

I have family members who work in the medical sector, sorry, who are medical "professionals". The amount of theft by staff is staggering. The chances of making a complaint and it getting a fair hearing is extremely low. It's not a closed shop but it's not far from it. They look after their own and, when push comes to shove, patient care is well down the list of priorities.

Some years ago I was in a children's ward in tallaght hospital with my son. He had been there for 3 weeks and I had stayed every night, leaving only to go to work during the day. I remember being in his room with the door open and hearing the nurses who were gathered at the nurses station at the entrance to the ward (where they spent most of their time chatting). One nurse recounted in vivid detail, in a voice loud enough for me to hear 30 feet away in a different room, the oral sex she had given to a guy she had met the previous weekend. I mentioned it to one of the nurses from the Philippines who was working there, in my experience the only nurses who took a real interest in patient care. She said that before I made a complaint I should consider my sons care. I knew what she meant.

 

[Leper]

1. The Incident Report Form concerns patient/staff care only including theft. Every Incident or Near Miss is recorded and input into a national data base. This allows the hospital system to monitor where things are going wrong and to management increases awareness. These incidents can be a patient falling, a hospital doctor turning up late for clinics etc.

2. Like everybody else nurses talk. What they talk about is their business. If you go to work and talk of nothing else other than work issues, you are a martyr. I know when I was working management used to encourage talk to build up staff morale. All work and no play . . .

3. If you were urged to consider your son's care before you made a complaint you should be talking to HIQA or the Gardaí. Blackmail is a serious offence.

4. If you had said that the only nurse you could rely on is Irish, it would be considered a racist comment by many.

 

[Leo]

2. Like everybody else nurses talk. What they talk about is their business.

Are you suggesting it's OK to have a sexually explicit conversations within earshot of young children or the wider public?

Depending on the circumstances, such a conversation could lead to a swift disciplinary action where I work, and that's in an environment with no customers or general public present. But staff are expected to act in a professional and respectful manner here.

 

[mathepac]

3. A team of medical staff (including nurses)

Can we put this to bed once and for all please. Nurses are *not* medical staff, they are nursing staff; they have no medical degrees, they have nursing degrees and there is a wide difference. They may like to think of themselves as medically trained and qualified and may even aspire to being financially rewarded in line with their imagined medical knowledge, but the day that happens I'm off to the local witch doctor.

I'm disappointed to hear @Purple's experience mirror that of my sister in another hospital as documented by me in another post, adding strength to my personally held belief that nursing is moving towards becoming an uncaring profession.

 

[Leper]

Can we put this to bed once and for all please. Nurses are *not* medical staff, they are nursing staff; they have no medical degrees, they have nursing degrees and there is a wide difference. They may like to think of themselves as medically trained and qualified and may even aspire to being financially rewarded in line with their imagined medical knowledge, but the day that happens I'm off to the local witch doctor. . .

1. Let's keep semantics out of it as they cause diversion. Description of Nursing Staff/Medical Staff who cares?

2. I agree that personal intimate conversations should not be heard anywhere. (as per Leo above).

 

[Purple]

1. The Incident Report Form concerns patient/staff care only including theft. Every Incident or Near Miss is recorded and input into a national data base. This allows the hospital system to monitor where things are going wrong and to management increases awareness. These incidents can be a patient falling, a hospital doctor turning up late for clinics etc.

You'd think that we had a well run Health System, wouldn't you?
We spend vast amounts of money on our public healthcare system, amongst the highest in the world.
That is topped up by the couple of billion we spend on private healthcare.
We have highly paid doctors and Nurses, few of whom emigrate each year.
98% of nurses who graduate are still working in the Irish system 9 months after graduation. That's much higher than accountancy, engineering or even lower grade qualifications which would be in line with nursing.

A very high proportion of Doctors who graduate have come here from other countries to train and are obliged to go home after they complete their training. About 20 years ago they accounted for more than 20% of Trinity College graduates. I suspect that the percentage in the RCSI is far higher. I can't find any figures but I assume that it is now the same or higher. When doctors lie about what they earn and the hours they work they also keep telling us about how many Irish doctors emigrate each year. They fail to mention that a high proportion of graduates are not from Ireland and have to leave. In practice they are misrepresenting the facts (what the rest of us call lying). Edit; this suggests that 26% of those who graduate from Irish Medical Schools are from outside the EU. Would it be reasonable to think that at least another 10% are from outside Ireland? That means that one in three Graduates will "go home" after they graduate. The non EU doctors will have paid over a third of a million Euro to train here so they owe us nothing.

Doctors and nurses account for almost half of the total workforce in the HSE. As long as they persist with only concerning themselves with their narrow self interest and delusional self-aggrandisement they will remain part of the problem and not part of the solution.
Lack of accountability is a major part of the problem. When that is coupled with weak management and bad and inefficient work practices it is, literally, lethal. If it takes 4 years to sort out an issue as serious as someone sedating themselves in the workplace it speaks to the broader issues outlined above.

 

[Leper]

Purple, you're confusing the issue again and gone off on more tangents you'd find in Euclid.

Newsflash! It is not the nurses who prolong any investigation. It's not even the doctors. It's not even the administrative staff. It's not even the hospital management. Peoples' Registration is at stake. Every t needs to be crossed and every i dotted. Any deviation and the legal people are called in. Believe me, they know how to prolong and how to charge.

Therefore, look elsewhere to blame for any prolonged enquiry.

 

[Purple]

Purple, you're confusing the issue again and gone off on more tangents you'd find in Euclid.

Newsflash! It is not the nurses who prolong any investigation. It's not even the doctors. It's not even the administrative staff. It's not even the hospital management. Peoples' Registration is at stake. Every t needs to be crossed and every i dotted. Any deviation and the legal people are called in. Believe me, they know how to prolong and how to charge.

Therefore, look elsewhere to blame for any prolonged enquiry.

You outlines an incident reporting process and then said that the information gathered was used to improve things;

1. The Incident Report Form concerns patient/staff care only including theft. Every Incident or Near Miss is recorded and input into
a national data base. This allows the hospital system to monitor where things are going wrong and to management increases awareness. These incidents can be a patient falling, a hospital doctor turning up late for clinics etc.

I simply pointed out that while they may gather the data their efforts to use that data to improve things is sorely, and often fatally, lacking.
Until we dispel the myth of a health service full of dedicated and hard working "professionals" doing all they can in the face of a faceless and inept system we won't improve anything. The HSE is everyone who works in it. It should never take 4 years to investigate an incident such as the one outlined above and yet nobody is surprised that it does.

 

[noproblem]

Leper,
You can't deny though that Purple's points would have a very big bearing on issues happening or not, as the case may be. People in certain jobs tend to brush things under the carpet so to speak. To me it's hugely surprising there's not many , many, more cases of negligence and far worse being brought against hospital staff and Dr's, ie, nurses and Dr's. Is it because everyone's minding one another?

 

[Purple]

3. If you were urged to consider your son's care before you made a complaint you should be talking to HIQA or the Gardaí. Blackmail is a serious offence.

She was just warning me about what would happen, not threatening me.
It was hard enough to get the nurses to do anything at the best of times. If you called them they would have to finish their chat first.

 

[Purple]

Leper, are the same procedures used in Care Homes run by the HSE?
If so it is very hard to take them seriously.

HIQA is a very good development but they have a serious task ahead of them in changing the culture of complacency, unprofessionalism, unaccountability and ineptitude which seems to be endemic within just about every area of the Health Service.