24 years in job, no contract, prime duties now being outsourced.

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Commanna girl

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I would welcome advice please regarding a situation relating to my husband's work.

He has been employed with this company for 24 years doing book keeping duties (payroll, invoicing, supplier payments etc).

He never received a contract (possibly due to different times 24 years ago). The business has expanded in the last number of years with doubling of staff and his workload and responsibility has increased.

His last pay increase, after much negotiation was .75 c an hour last year and he requested a contract at this time (request sent by email to his employer with an outline of his duties to assist in drawing up a contract). No response or acknowledgement from employer to date despite verbal reminders from my husband.

In May the company decided to outsource a large part of their accounts (including half of my husband's book keeping to a company that uses AI technology.

As this was all happening, my husband made another request for a pay increase to bring him to the average pay level of a bookkeeper.

These requests have been ongoing since May and they keep saying they will get back to him. It is looking likely that his full role as a bookkeeper will be fully outsourced in the coming months.

So our questions are
If my husband doesn't have a contract, can the employer change his role and possibly reduce his hours?
What proof does he have of his duties to date if he has no contract?
What does the law say about an employer who has not fulfilled his legal obligations by offering an employee a contract for approx 24 years?
His preference is to be offered a redundancy package but can the employee initiate this request or does it have to come from the employer?
We cannot afford for him to leave this job therefore redundancy payment covering 24yrs service would give some financial protection for a few months to our family.

He spoke to the Workplace Relations Commission last year about his situation and they advised that his starting point was getting a contract. He has endeavoured to get a with no success to date. Could this be an argument in his favour in negotiating a redundancy package.

Thank you in advance for reading this long post and any advice you can give.
 
Is this of any use?

Employment Law: Am I obliged to give my employees a written contract of employment? - Hanahoe & Hanahoe

Share on Twitter or LinkedinTweetOnce an employer starts to regularly pay a worker a wage or a salary, a contract of employment is deemed to exist. Although there is no requirement to furnish this employee with a written contract of employment, under the Terms of Employment (Information) Act...
www.hanahoe-solicitors.ie www.hanahoe-solicitors.ie
Once an employer starts to regularly pay a worker a wage or a salary, a contract of employment is deemed to exist. Although there is no requirement to furnish this employee with a written contract of employment, under the Terms of Employment (Information) Act 1994, an employer is required to furnish his employees with a written statement of the terms of their employment, within two months of them commencing work. This written statement must contain the following particulars:
...
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Did he ever receive any of the above?
 
ClubMan said:
Is this of any use?

Employment Law: Am I obliged to give my employees a written contract of employment? - Hanahoe & Hanahoe

Share on Twitter or LinkedinTweetOnce an employer starts to regularly pay a worker a wage or a salary, a contract of employment is deemed to exist. Although there is no requirement to furnish this employee with a written contract of employment, under the Terms of Employment (Information) Act...
www.hanahoe-solicitors.ie www.hanahoe-solicitors.ie

Did he ever receive any of the above?
Click to expand...
Thanks a million for your reply. No , he never got any written statement either..
 
First of all he has a contract. It’s just not written down and that fact, in itself, is a breach of his employment rights.

He should write to his employer and state that he wants his contract by the end of next week. Your right to get the core terms of employment (in writing) is set out in the Employment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2018 and updated by the European Union (Transparent and Predictable Working Conditions) Regulations 2022. Employers can face serious penalties if they do not comply.
 
But that doesn’t solve his big problem. His job is being shrunk. He possibly is entitled to redundancy. He should talk to an employment solicitor. He possibly was entitled to it when the outsourcing occurred under the transfer of undertaking rules.

He should sit down and write out his employment history to date, his current terms of employment, what happened, when and attach any emails supporting the information (requests for employment contract, outsourcing his role etc). Then send to a solicitor and as for a fixed price to review the information and tell him his options. He might decide to deal with matters himself then but he’d know what buttons he has to push.
 
DeeKie said:
But that doesn’t solve his big problem. His job is being shrunk. He possibly is entitled to redundancy. He should talk to an employment solicitor. He possibly was entitled to it when the outsourcing occurred under the transfer of undertaking rules.

He should sit down and write out his employment history to date, his current terms of employment, what happened, when and attach any emails supporting the information (requests for employment contract, outsourcing his role etc). Then send to a solicitor and as for a fixed price to review the information and tell him his options. He might decide to deal with matters himself then but he’d know what buttons he has to push.
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Thank you so much. When you re involved personally in the situation, it's hard to think clearly so appreciate the tips.
 
Commanna girl said:
As this was all happening, my husband made another request for a pay increase to bring him to the average pay level of a bookkeeper.
Click to expand...
If he is being paid below market average in a highly employable area - why doesn't he just look for a new higher paying job?
 
50andOut said:
If he is being paid below market average in a highly employable area - why doesn't he just look for a new higher paying job?
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True, but not always easy when you are in your 50's and living in a small town in rural Ireland. He has been looking at job opportunities but I think he would be wrong to leave a job after 24 years service for a medicore, similar job. The right job hasn't yet come up yet for him to make that change.
 
Commanna girl said:
His preference is to be offered a redundancy package but can the employee initiate this request or does it have to come from the employer?
Click to expand...
There's nothing to stop him broaching the subject with the employer but (a) be would obviously be showing his hand by stating that he'd like to leave and (b) strictly the role/job would have to be made redundant for redundancy to apply (and with them resorting to AI or other means of doing some or all of the job then maybe that is the case here).
 
There is no way he should even hint he wants redundancy. It sounds like he is going to be made redundant anyway and that his employer has avoided doing pretty serious obligations as regards a written contract.

What is his current salary.
 
Bronte said:
and that his employer has avoided doing pretty serious obligations as regards a written contract.
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There is no obligation on an employer to furnish the employee with a written contract of employment.

Contract of employment

The law specifies that contracts of employment must contain certain details, and your employer must give you your terms of employment in writing.
www.citizensinformation.ie www.citizensinformation.ie
Legally, you do not have to get your whole contract in writing. However, the law says you must get a ‘written statement of terms of employment’ (read more below).
Click to expand...
 
It sounds pretty much like a written contract or very close to it. Ironically my DH never had a written one, nor terms of employment that I recall until he was leaving Ireland with them.
 
ClubMan said:
There is no obligation on an employer to furnish the employee with a written contract of employment.

Contract of employment

The law specifies that contracts of employment must contain certain details, and your employer must give you your terms of employment in writing.
www.citizensinformation.ie www.citizensinformation.ie
Click to expand...
He has never received a written statement of terms of employment either
 
ClubMan said:
There's nothing to stop him broaching the subject with the employer but (a) be would obviously be showing his hand by stating that he'd like to leave and (b) strictly the role/job would have to be made redundant for redundancy to apply (and with them resorting to AI or other means of doing some or all of the job then maybe that is the case here).
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Exactly. Ideally the redundancy suggestion needs to come from the employer but it seems that they may be trying to manage him out and get him to leave of his own accord. He will never build up 24 years of company service again.
 
Bronte said:
There is no way he should even hint he wants redundancy. It sounds like he is going to be made redundant anyway and that his employer has avoided doing pretty serious obligations as regards a written contract.

What is his current salary.
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I think they will do everything to push him to leave himself (refuse his pay increase request or offer him new duties that are not related to the work he has been doing).
 
Always remember, people don't get made redundant, positions do. So if his job his being outsourced to a new provider then aside from his contract situation, which is the first step of a process there are a number of things he should do. The absence of a contract and their behaviour suggests they are either chancers or behind the times when it comes to HR and their legal obligations

He should be asking if his role is also transferring to the new provider under the Transfer of Undertakings of Employment (TUPE) legislation or not? He had a legal right to be consulted around such a transfer 30 days before the transfer of duties is complete.

Does he receive payslips.? Regardless, he should be asking for written confirmation that his employer has paid his PRSI contributions. Payslips may also act as a proof of employment if it came to it.

Frankly, from the sounds of it, his employer doesn't have a leg to stand on here and he could make life very difficult for them. He should also insist on everything in writing going forward.
 
I think Bronte's point above is a good one. I would try and keep all the work you are doing under the hood for now. Keep your powder dry. I suggest you get him to start writing stuff down in a diary. What he should say should they say this a and what he should say if they say b. Do a narrative of his time there from day one and add to it as things come to mind. Don't panic, worst case scenario statutory redundancy is 2 weeks per year up to a max of 600 a week. It adds up to a nice sum. Finally, don't lose the head if they start trying to tick him off, you don't want to create any reason for a dismissal. Keep schtum when out with friends also seeing as you say you live in a town.

thedaddyman said:
Regardless, he should be asking for written confirmation that his employer has paid his PRSI contributions.
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You can find this out yourself by requesting a record from the department in Sligo.
 
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