180k to invest in Irish Property

CAZ100

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Hi
I am an Irish national non resident and would like to buy an investment property in Ireland. I have a relatively low budget of 180k and am not in a position to get a mortgage. The purpose of the property is to give an investment return with possible capital gains in the future and also give me some peace of mind that I have a place in Ireland should I ever want to return. I know the rental rules have changed in terms of how the rent can be set which is proving to be a bit of a mine field as often the estate agent doesn't know the previous rent. I am looking for suggestions of what and where to buy.

Thanks in Advance
 
The regulations are horrific so it's not really a good idea to invest in property generally.

This is going to be very difficult to manage remotely.

I am looking for suggestions of what and where to buy.

Owning property is a business and not a passive investment. The fact that you don't know the market is another reason for not investing.

Brendan
 
It's not as bad as @Brendan Burgess makes out.

I think you have to decide though whether you want a pure investment, or somewhere eventually to live, or both.

If you want a pure investment:
  1. Get something with a high yield. Apartments outside Dublin have the highest rents relative to price.
  2. If you are buying an apartment buy something with a decent sinking fund in place.
  3. Absolutely use a letting agent. You will not be in a position to deal with tenant queries from abroad.
  4. You will pay very little if any tax if it is your sole income in Ireland. Not sure how tax treatment will work abroad.
  5. Capital gains are always possible, but house prices in 2019 aren't clearly undervalued the way they were in 2012.
  6. If the apartment has not been let recently then it will not initially be subject to rent controls.

I think you should be able to get an after-tax net yield of about 5%
 
It's not as bad as @Brendan Burgess makes out.

I think you have to decide though whether you want a pure investment, or somewhere eventually to live, or both.

If you want a pure investment:
  1. Get something with a high yield. Apartments outside Dublin have the highest rents relative to price.
  2. If you are buying an apartment buy something with a decent sinking fund in place.
  3. Absolutely use a letting agent. You will not be in a position to deal with tenant queries from abroad.
  4. You will pay very little if any tax if it is your sole income in Ireland. Not sure how tax treatment will work abroad.
  5. Capital gains are always possible, but house prices in 2019 aren't clearly undervalued the way they were in 2012.
  6. If the apartment has not been let recently then it will not initially be subject to rent controls.

I think you should be able to get an after-tax net yield of about 5%


Many thanks for the useful positive response particularly the info pertaining to; If the property hasn't been rented in the last few years it is not subject to the recent rent setting rules.
 
@Brendan Burgess - .Ofcourse owning an investment property is a business. I have previously managed a property in Ireland from abroad without any issues, quite often in life and business positive things can happen such as finding a trustworthy good tenant. Apart from the rent cap what horrific regulations are you referring to? My idea would be to purchase an existing habitable house or apartment. As you are discouraging the investment in property have you any other suggestions for where to invest 180k other than deposit and bonds?
 
@Brendan Burgess - .Ofcourse owning an investment property is a business. I have previously managed a property in Ireland from abroad without any issues, quite often in life and business positive things can happen such as finding a trustworthy good tenant. Apart from the rent cap what horrific regulations are you referring to? My idea would be to purchase an existing habitable house or apartment. As you are discouraging the investment in property have you any other suggestions for where to invest 180k other than deposit and bonds?

Takes two years to evict a tenant who decides to go rogue, delinquent tenants have extraordinary protection

Add to that if tenants do substantial damage, forget about ever seeing anything approaching justice
 
As you are discouraging the investment in property have you any other suggestions for where to invest 180k other than deposit and bonds?

Learn about investing, understand what property is such a high risk asset class and is discouraged as a major holding. Build a portfolio that will generate a superior result with lower risk profile over the next 20+ years.
 
@Jim2007 What are some of your alternative low risk asset investment suggestions? Yes I am looking for free advice as the site goes, askaboutmoney. Thanks!
 
@Jim2007 What are some of your alternative low risk asset investment suggestions? Yes I am looking for free advice as the site goes, askaboutmoney. Thanks!
I think what some of the other posters may be getting at is that your assessment of the levels of risk and reward may not be accurate here. The risk is higher than (I think) you're giving credit for, between problem tenants and possible decreases in value, while the reward may well be lower than you're expecting, by the time you pay somebody to manage the property for you, deal with vacant periods and maintenance, consider that property prices seem to be plateauing etc.

I'd also query whether €180k will buy a property in the kind of area you'd like to live if you ever did return to Ireland?

Have you considered investing that money in the stock market? It would likely get similar returns there, with little or no maintenance. The market may go down (keep in-mind Irish house prices dropped as much as the stockmarket in Ireland recently) but provided you don't sell at this time, it has always come back up. Then if you do decide to move back to Ireland in future you can easily sell the shares and buy a property that suits your lifestyle at that time in a location you are sure you want to live.
 
I think what some of the other posters may be getting at is that your assessment of the levels of risk and reward may not be accurate here. The risk is higher than (I think) you're giving credit for, between problem tenants and possible decreases in value, while the reward may well be lower than you're expecting, by the time you pay somebody to manage the property for you, deal with vacant periods and maintenance, consider that property prices seem to be plateauing etc.

I'd also query whether €180k will buy a property in the kind of area you'd like to live if you ever did return to Ireland?

Have you considered investing that money in the stock market? It would likely get similar returns there, with little or no maintenance. The market may go down (keep in-mind Irish house prices dropped as much as the stockmarket in Ireland recently) but provided you don't sell at this time, it has always come back up. Then if you do decide to move back to Ireland in future you can easily sell the shares and buy a property that suits your lifestyle at that time in a location you are sure you want to live.


Some good points there @Zenith63 . Thanks. The possibility of getting a bad tenant is something I can live with or am willing to take the risk on. In relation to the prices going down, its possible of course yes, I wouldn't like to be buying in a peak market but are there really any signs the market is slowing down, i.e prices coming down, not that I am aware of.

In terms of the stock market, I would prefer to invest in something I understand more i.e property and by doing so would also have a roof over my head should I ever need it in the future or should any of my next of kin need it. I have dabbled in the stock market a little before but not with much success, eircom / vodafone, Irish bank shares, Rabo direct funds etc all went in the wrong direction never to give returns in my life time. When the property crash hit Ireland in 2008 there were many saying property would never recover in our lifetimes to the levels of the 'boom' , well I guess they have.

I find the thoughts of navigating the stock market too risky and daunting. I am also concerned that the markets have hit their peak and a serious pullback is on the cards sometime in the future. I would not want to enter the market prior to that occurring if it is to occur.

If I am to enter the stock market from the little knowledge I have gained I believe a mutual fund that tracks a broad stock market Index such as the S&P 500 might be the way to go. I read that over the long term this always beats any fund manager with their hidden fees and charges. How liquid is your mutual fund though that tracks an index, what happens if the company selling the fund goes out of business? and even how does one buy such a low cost index tracked mutual fund? and then what are the tax implications? As messy as property can be I believe the stock market for those without expertise and even for those with expertise can be just as risky and complicated as a property investment.

Looking at all the comments so far I am thinking the best thing to do is leave the money on deposit or bonds earning next to nothing. I was hoping askaboutmoney would provide me with some better solutions....but thanks to everyone for their comments to date.
 
In relation to the prices going down, its possible of course yes, I wouldn't like to be buying in a peak market but are there really any signs the market is slowing down, i.e prices coming down, not that I am aware of.
Some signs, possibly -
https://www.independent.ie/business...-month-in-a-row-as-demand-eases-37915787.html

But who knows what the future holds?

If you want to hedge against future residential property price increases, you could invest a portion of your savings in the shares of iRes REIT Plc. I'm not saying I would do that in your shoes but it is an option.
 
Holding onto your money in a safe haven is also a strategy, many observers don't get that, the do nothing is also a strategy, ask anybody that has the benefit of hindsight.
 
I have dabbled in the stock market a little before but not with much success, eircom / vodafone, Irish bank shares, Rabo direct funds etc all went in the wrong direction never to give returns in my life time.
Yeah a lot of people in Ireland have a dim view on the stockmarket after eircom, Anglo Irish Bank etc. But I'd really encourage you to give it one more try. The fact you're on here asking the question about investing, and not about where to get the best deposit rate, puts you ahead of most people.


I find the thoughts of navigating the stock market too risky and daunting.
I think the trick is don't try to navigate it. Just buy an S&P500 (as you suggested yourself) ETF and if you want some geographical spread, a European index ETF and leave them, check the price once a month at most if you're curious.


How liquid is your mutual fund though that tracks an index, what happens if the company selling the fund goes out of business?
ETFs are extremely liquid, just like a regular share. The companies that manage these are generally very big stable companies, Blackrock for example has $150bn under management, so while it's possible they could go out of business the likelihood is very low. But there are lots of them out there, so if it gave you more comfort you could buy and S&P500 index ETF from 3/4/5 different providers to spread the risk, there's little downside to doing so other than a small bit more paperwork when calculating your tax.


and even how does one buy such a low cost index tracked mutual fund? and then what are the tax implications? As messy as property can be I believe the stock market for those without expertise and even for those with expertise can be just as risky and complicated as a property investment.
You can buy these ETFs very easily, any stockbroker will be able to buy them for you. All you need to do is pick a broker, fill in a form and send some ID, a week later you'll be able to log in and do a bank transfer of some funds to your account, then search for your preferred S&P500 ETF and click Buy, choosing the amount you want, you're done. Yes there will be some tax admin required, but it's not complicated and would be required if you become a landlord as well. You could get an accountant to do it for you for a few hundred quid if you'd prefer.


Looking at all the comments so far I am thinking the best thing to do is leave the money on deposit or bonds earning next to nothing. I was hoping askaboutmoney would provide me with some better solutions....but thanks to everyone for their comments to date.
Just a couple of data points for you. If you had invested in an S&P500 ETF 10 years ago you would have nailed the crash and lost ~40% in that first year, about as bad as it gets, but the market recovered and over those 10 years your return would have been 8% per annum. If you'd invested 20 years ago you'd have entered the market just before the dotcom crash and you'd pick up the 2008 crash as well, but the market recovered and you'd still have made about 8% per annum if you stayed in. 8% would be a tough enough return to make in the property market with more work required (saying this as a landlord myself). 8% is a 4-500% better return than you'll make in a deposit account and 2-300% more than you'd make in Irish government bonds (given they're tax free).



Even if you're not comfortable putting all your money in (totally understandable), I'd strongly encourage you to setup a stockbroker account and stick €10k in just to get a feel for it, it will stand to you greatly in the long run.
 
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