1,471 court repossessions in context

[Brendan Burgess]

Here are the up to date figures for actual repossessions and arrears.



Since the crisis began, Irish lenders have actually repossessed only 1,471 family homes.

If you went into arrears, you have had only a 1% chance of having your home repossessed.

In practice, it has been a lot less. Many of the homes which have been repossessed by court order have been abandoned. Many more which were once family homes, have since been let out.

In over 2,000 cases attended by Karl Deeter, Séamus Coffey and me, we have seen no orders for possession granted by the court where the borrower has been paying something meaningful regularly.

There have been around 17,000 repossession proceedings started by the banks, but most of these have been started to satisfy the Central Bank's requirements. The lenders know that they have not a hope in hell of being granted an order for possession.

The 1,471 figure relates to homes actually repossessed by court order. There have been more court orders granted, but many of them do not end up in a repossession. The borrower sometimes begins to engage and start payments only after the order has been granted.

As well as the 1,471 homes repossessed by court order, maybe 3,000 more have been voluntarily surrendered. And of course, in more cases, borrowers have been pressurised by their lenders to sell their homes when their mortgages became unsustainable.

The key message is: If you are in mortgage difficulty and you make any effort to keep your home, the lender will not succeed in repossessing it, if you don't want it repossessed.

 

[Matthew Moore]

In over 2,000 cases attended by Karl Deeter, Séamus Coffey and me, we have seen no orders for possession granted by the court where the borrower has been paying something meaningful regularly.

Hi Brendan,

The group within the 2000 that are making meaningful payments but nevertheless, still in the courts process; what do you envisage will ultimately happen to them?
I'm asking this because although they are making meaningful payments, I presume it is not full capital, interest and arrears. Therefore, at some stage their situation will have to be dealt with by either strike out, continuous adjournments or repossession.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

The group within the 2000 that are making meaningful payments but nevertheless, still in the courts process; what do you envisage will ultimately happen to them?

It's a very good question and I don't know the answer.

In any normal environment, continuous adjournment would not be seen as a solution. But in Ireland, it seems to be acceptable.

This is what should happen and might actually happen.

1) The Central Bank gets rid of the Targets Regime which forces banks to take legal actions which they know have no chance of succeeding and which cause huge stress.
2) The Central Bank publishes a definition of what a sustainable mortgage is.
3) The lenders strike out those cases where the borrowers are making sustainable payments - roughly speaking, meeting the full interest on their mortgage.
4) The law is changed to allow the speedier repossession of those who are paying nothing meaningful - either because their mortgage is too big or because they are deliberate defaulters.

At the moment when I see a case in the Circuit Court being adjourned I have no idea if it's a deliberate defaulter who should be repossessed immediately or if they are making meaningful payments and are only there to meet the Central Bank targets.

 

[Bronte]

An article by Kitty Holland in the Irish Times today on this:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...nearly-4-500-homes-new-figures-show-1.2426190

- 7,100 cases lodged up to this year, this year another 4,400 lodged = 11,500
- Of the 4,400 lodged this year, 82% are homes, 2% buy to let, and 16% (that buy to let rate is very low?)
- Of orders granted -70% for homes, 12% for buy to let, and 20% for other
- This year 758 family homes had repossession orders granted and 131 buy to lets. = circa 1000
- 889 cases were refused (she doesn't say how many of those were family homes)
- no idea how many cases were withdrawn or settled
- Seems about 1000 cases are actually dealt with in court but that's not the end of the matter
- A respossession order does not mean actual repossession, the bank has to 'execute' the order - not sure what this mean?
- However the majority of repossesions do not need a court order if there is a certain clause in the mortgage contract

 

[Sarenco]

It's interesting that the number of repossession proceedings initiated during the first 9 months of this year is down materially on the number of proceedings initiated during the same period of 2014.

At some point you would expect the backlog of cases to clear through the system but it's certainly going to take a very, very long time at this rate.

 

[Matthew Moore]

3) The lenders strike out those cases where the borrowers are making sustainable payments - roughly speaking, meeting the full interest on their mortgage.

In my own case, full payment plus arrears was the only option on the table if I wanted to avoid court. No.3 seems reasonable and something we could manage but they had no interest.

It will change the landscape completely if 1 year bankruptcy comes in and is taken up in any great numbers. I feel that the bank/courts can kicking will come to an end one way or another in the next couple of years.

 

[Matthew Moore]

- A respossession order does not mean actual repossession, the bank has to 'execute' the order - not sure what this mean?

If you fail to leave voluntarily they can then seek an execution order. I believe in Dublin and Cork this involves getting the Sheriff and Bailiffs, not sure outside of these areas how it works.

 

[Delboy]

It would have been helpful and reassuring for those in arrears if Kitty had thrown in actual repossession stats at the end of the article. I wasn't expecting her to and she didn't dissapoint

 

[Brendan Burgess]

I found the information confusing. We need something like the following:



I will ask the Courts Service for it.

 

[Bronte]

It's interesting that the number of repossession proceedings initiated during the first 9 months of this year is down materially on the number of proceedings initiated during the same period of 2014.

At some point you would expect the backlog of cases to clear through the system but it's certainly going to take a very, very long time at this rate.

Holland has a second article on this and does point out that indeed the number of cases being brought is decreasing and she has suggested that there was probably a flurry of activity in Dublin initially and now this is easing off.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...-fewer-repossession-cases-initiated-1.2426228

"Banks are continuing to obtain home repossession orders in increasing numbers.

However, the rate at which they are initiating the arduous legal process to obtain such orders appears to be levelling off, the latest figures from the Courts Service indicate"

 

[Bronte]

It would have been helpful and reassuring for those in arrears if Kitty had thrown in actual repossession stats at the end of the article. I wasn't expecting her to and she didn't dissapoint

But would she know? Is there a list of 'excecution orders' and after that is there a list of 'execution orders carried out'. Only the sherriff's would know that. Holland points out in one of her articles that only the Banks know the amount of 'foreclosure's.'

I was listening to a Joe Duffy podcase with landlords and one them 'claimed' there were thousands of repossesions of family homes but it's not true and Joe never challenged the assertion.

Of the family homes repossessed, we don't know how many were single dwellers or emigrants. I don't know anybody who actually lost their home, except for the Killiney two with multiple properties and O'Donnell solicitor.

Nor do we know who was paying zero.

 

[Bronte]

I found the information confusing. We need something like the following:

View attachment 979

I will ask the Courts Service for it.

Yes I too found it confusing, tabulor format and add in the different categories, family homes, BTL etc. Kitty Holland got the date from the Court service. Maybe the Sherriff's keep data, even if you just did say Dublin and Cork (which seems to be gung ho) that would bring a clearer picture of what is going on)

 

[Sarenco]

Holland has a second article on this and does point out that indeed the number of cases being brought is decreasing and she has suggested that there was probably a flurry of activity in Dublin initially and now this is easing off.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...-fewer-repossession-cases-initiated-1.2426228

"Banks are continuing to obtain home repossession orders in increasing numbers.

However, the rate at which they are initiating the arduous legal process to obtain such orders appears to be levelling off, the latest figures from the Courts Service indicate"

Thanks for that.

It seems bizarre to me that the number of repossession orders being made in Dublin is actually falling. I personally don't find the possible explanations in the article for this trend very plausible.

 

[demoivre]

This is what should happen and might actually happen.

1) The Central Bank gets rid of the Targets Regime which forces banks to take legal actions which they know have no chance of succeeding and which cause huge stress.
2) The Central Bank publishes a definition of what a sustainable mortgage is.
3) The lenders strike out those cases where the borrowers are making sustainable payments - roughly speaking, meeting the full interest on their mortgage.
4) The law is changed to allow the speedier repossession of those who are paying nothing meaningful - either because their mortgage is too big or because they are deliberate defaulters.

We should be making more use of the ISI which could make many a mortgage in arrears sustainable.

 

[Sarenco]

The key message is: If you are in mortgage difficulty and you make any effort to keep your home, the lender will not succeed in repossessing it, if you don't want it repossessed.

Hi Brendan

While this is admittedly a rather extreme case, it does indicate that there are at least some limits to the patience of the Courts. Making last minute payments to a lender or pleas to a Court will not necessarily save a defaulting borrower from repossession in all circumstances.

Mind you, it took a very long time to get to this point...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...-for-second-time-over-mortgage-debt-1.2448867

 

[Andy836]

Hi Brendan

While this is admittedly a rather extreme case, it does indicate that there are at least some limits to the patience of the Courts. Making last minute payments to a lender or pleas to a Court will not necessarily save a defaulting borrower from repossession in all circumstances.

Mind you, it took a very long time to get to this point...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...-for-second-time-over-mortgage-debt-1.2448867

I think the article is misleading.

The article title is "Woman put out of home for second time over mortgage debt" - this is incorrect.

She wasn't ordered out of the house the 2nd time for "mortgage debt".

She was put out for essentially trespassing. She had been removed previously on foot of the mortgage but had reoccupied the property without permission.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Sarenco

"The first default occurred in May 2007 and the last payment towards the mortgage, apart from one this month of €900, had been made in April 2013."

She had not engaged with the lender.

They got an order for possession.

She appealed it and lost.



Brendan

 

[Sarenco]

Hi Sarenco

We don't know anything about the original order, but she was probably paying nothing at all and probably not engaging.

Brendan

Hi Brendan

I think it's pretty clear from the media reports (link to the Indo's report on the same story below) that the borrower did not engage until after the possession order was granted, at which point it was really too late to save her situation.

If she had turned up and made the same plea to the Court, or made any meaningful repayment to her lender, before the possession order was granted, well who knows...

But I strongly suspect she could have at least delayed the possession order for a further period.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-home-in-weeks-before-christmas-34246124.html

 

[Sarenco]

I think the article is misleading.

The article title is "Woman put out of home for second time over mortgage debt" - this is incorrect.

She wasn't ordered out of the house the 2nd time for "mortgage debt".

She was put out for essentially trespassing. She had been removed previously on foot of the mortgage but had reoccupied the property without permission.

You're right of course Andy but I guess my point in posting a link to this story was to make the point that a borrower can't expect to receive leniency from the Courts indefinitely if they choose to simply ignore their debts.

It seems pretty clear at this stage that the Courts will go out of their way to give borrowers every possible opportunity to resolve their issues with their lenders.

But there are limits.

 

[Purple]

Of the family homes repossessed, we don't know how many were single dwellers or emigrants. I don't know anybody who actually lost their home, except for the Killiney two with multiple properties and O'Donnell solicitor.

It should be remembered that many people do not own their family home, they rent it. The fact that they rent it doesn't make it any less of a home for them. When rental properties are re-possessed the tenant has lost their family home.
I do not understand why the courts give any weight to whether the property is owned by the family who lives in it or rented by the family who lives in it.