E&Y: Free public transport would reduce car travel by only 1%

[Concrete]

No, as private motoring is heavily taxed, it constitutes a huge net earner for the taxpayer, notwithstanding its obvious negative externalities.

On that basis, my original point clearly stands.


Expecting people to walk or cycle dozens of miles daily is not a remotely sustainable strategy, especially on inadequate roads.

I don't believe motor tax is a net earner, even if you only take into account the most directly-related costs like road building and maintenance (e.g. I remember the Dundrum bypass alone cost tens of millions for a kilometer or so of road back in the early 2000's for example).
Is your statement your opinion or a fact?
Also, the other costs (medical, etc.) of private cars to the tax payer are real and not just of theoretical interest. All of us taxpayers pay for this.

Expecting people to walk or cycle dozens of miles daily is not a remotely sustainable strategy, especially on inadequate roads.

I think we're talking about different things (and different locations). Like I say, I live in Dublin and there are lots of good opportunities for walking and cycling the (often) very small distances people need to travel to school/work/etc. but most people drive in their cars and block up the roads, causing frustration all round. That has to change.

 

[T McGibney]

I don't believe motor tax is a net earner, even if you only take into account the most directly-related costs like road building and maintenance (e.g. I remember the Dundrum bypass alone cost tens of millions for a kilometer or so of road back in the early 2000's for example).

Beside the point. The tax take on excise and VAT on motor fuels dwarfs that from motor tax. As does that from VRT.

Is your statement your opinion or a fact?

I'm pretty certain it's a fact. But you can look it up as easily as I can if you wish to find out for sure.

I think we're talking about different things (and different locations). Like I say, I live in Dublin and there are lots of good opportunities for walking and cycling the (often) very small distances people need to travel to school/work/etc. but most people drive in their cars and block up the roads, causing frustration all round. That has to change.

Most people don't live in Dublin. And only a very small subset of people in Dublin travel walkable distances to work daily. The M50 alone is busy with commuters every morning and evening, as are all the metropolitan industrial estates and business parks. Very few people who work in those places live nearby.

 

[Concrete]

as private motoring is heavily taxed, it constitutes a huge net earner for the taxpayer,

vs.

I'm pretty certain it's a fact.

You're doubting yourself a bit, from being definitive to being pretty certain.

It's not up to me to verify something you previously stated as a fact.

My point about Dublin/elsewhere is that transport needs to be appropriate to the location. I never said anything about most people living in Dublin but for the people who do live there (and the other cities), there can be huge improvements in the way we use our limited road-space.
You selected one specific subset of what i said - relating to walkable distance to work and I agree - most people wouldn't be walkable distance to work. However, I believe a lot of people live a walkable/cyclable distance to schools (and cyclable to work) but they drive. I also said "etc." and i was thinking of things like very short-distance trips to the local shop/sports centre/takeaway. These are all easily doable at the moment, with a lot of areas having good paths but people still choosing to drive.
Here are some stats from a random google:

How We Travelled - CSO - Central Statistics Office

www.cso.ie

I like this one in particular, and it's what I'm getting at here: "For short journeys (less than two kilometres), 56.9% of journeys were by car" To me, that's mad, and there must be lots of gains we can make there.

 

[PGF2016]

as private motoring is heavily taxed, it constitutes a huge net earner for the taxpayer

https://twitter.com/brenttoderian/status/1409148772718841863

"If walking costs you $1, we all pay $0.01. If biking costs you $1, we all pay $0.08. If bussing costs you $1, we all pay $1.50. If driving costs you $1, we all pay $9.20. Via @thediscourse study."

Those statistics are not from Ireland but I don't think it's valid to say that private motoring is a net earner for the tax payer.

 

[T McGibney]

Those statistics are not from Ireland but I don't think it's valid to say that private motoring is a net earner for the tax payer.

How can it not be, when a huge proportion of all fuel revenues alone comprise government taxes and the State has successfully argued at EU level since 1992 that it cannot afford to scrap VRT?

 

[Concrete]

How can it not be, when a huge proportion of all fuel revenues alone comprise government taxes and the State has successfully argued at EU level since 1992 that it cannot afford to scrap VRT?

Let's assume that's true (and those fuel taxes are not all paid by private car owners by the way), it still says nothing absolutely good, bad or indifferent about whether private motoring is a *net* earner for society.
We could be taking in €1 trillion in VRT and it wouldn't be any use whatsoever if all that private driving were found to have a cost to society of €10 trillion

 

[T McGibney]

Let's assume that's true (and those fuel taxes are not all paid by private car owners by the way), it still says nothing absolutely good, bad or indifferent about whether private motoring is a *net* earner for society.
We could be taking in €1 trillion in VRT and it wouldn't be any use whatsoever if all that private driving were found to have a cost to society of €10 trillion

Ok,
Excise duty from Autodiesel 2021 (suppressed somewhat by Covid) €1.429bn. Petrol not even included in this.
Carbon Tax from Autodiesel 2021 €292m
Carbon Tax from Petrol 2021 €62m
VRT 2021 €786m
https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/excise/net-receipts-by-commodity.pdf

Total €2,569m

Road maintenance
"The total cost of road maintenance of regional roads and local roads in Ireland in 2019 was €214 million and €532 million respectively"

https://assets.gov.ie/214502/367aa361-9cc9-4cc6-b821-8cf04cb71a9b.pdf

Road building (includes Greenways)
"The Minister for Transport Eamon Ryan has confirmed the allocation of €554 million to local authorities through Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) for national roads and greenways in 2023."

Over half a billion euro for Ireland’s national roads and greenways in 2023 -

The Minister for Transport Eamon Ryan T.D has confirmed the allocation of €554 million to local authorities through Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) for national roads and greenways in 2023.

www.tii.ie

Total €1,300m

 

[Purple]

They’d attract more people if you could tap your debit or Revolut card.

I never have any cash which is a barrier to me getting buses.

That's the main reason I don't use it.

 

[Peanuts20]

They’d attract more people if you could tap your debit or Revolut card.

I never have any cash which is a barrier to me getting buses.

Get a Leapcard

NTA are in the final stages of tendering for allowing debit and credit cards to be used but it will still be a few years to roll that out. Given the sheer amount of upgrades that are needed to be done to faciliate it, it will cost 10's of millions to implement and then to run.

I've been in Dublin City centre for the first time since lockdown recently on a couple of occassions and what surprised me is the lack of cars driving in there. Its much quieter. The bigger issue to me is out on the radial, the lack of public transport options for getting to the Airport or Sandyford for example without coming into the centre of town to get back out. There is a crying need for a radial light rail or Luas running around the outside of Dublin and better Park and Rides as well.

 

[Concrete]

Ok,
Excise duty from Autodiesel 2021 (suppressed somewhat by Covid) €1.429bn. Petrol not even included in this.
Carbon Tax from Autodiesel 2021 €292m
Carbon Tax from Petrol 2021 €62m
VRT 2021 €786m
https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/excise/net-receipts-by-commodity.pdf

Total €2,569m

Road maintenance
"The total cost of road maintenance of regional roads and local roads in Ireland in 2019 was €214 million and €532 million respectively"

https://assets.gov.ie/214502/367aa361-9cc9-4cc6-b821-8cf04cb71a9b.pdf

Road building (includes Greenways)
"The Minister for Transport Eamon Ryan has confirmed the allocation of €554 million to local authorities through Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) for national roads and greenways in 2023."

Over half a billion euro for Ireland’s national roads and greenways in 2023 -

The Minister for Transport Eamon Ryan T.D has confirmed the allocation of €554 million to local authorities through Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) for national roads and greenways in 2023.

www.tii.ie

Total €1,300m

Thank you - I really do appreciate you putting in the effort to put that together.
It's a great starting point.
The next step would be to add in all the other costs that private car use imposes on us all (including on people who don't have cars), as I've listed (some of) here already, and as alluded to in @PGF2016 's post, so that we get the *net* value (or cost) to society.

This is from 2012, by Transport people in Dresden University:

https://www.greens-efa.eu/legacy/fileadmin/dam/Documents/Studies/Costs_of_cars/The_true_costs_of_cars_EN.pdf

It estimated the cost (of things like road accidents, pollution and noise) per each single citizen (including children) of €750
Without allowing for inflation, the cost for Ireland would be (after taking out the benefit of drivers' insurance contributions):
€3,750m (750*5m people)
(note - this doesn't even include the costs of congestion or of ill-health caused by obesity).

added to the €1,300m you gave and taken from the €2,569, this gives an impressive:
___________________________________________________
(€2,481m) net cost of private car use to us all.
___________________________________________________

Please correct me if I've made a mistake somewhere.

 

[Concrete]

That's the main reason I don't use it.

I'm really surprised people aren't using Leap Cards - they're great.

From my post above:

In case it helps - prepaid leap cards work really well and can be set up to auto-top up from your bank when they run low - no maintenance required. There's a bit of set up needed initially but that's it.

Me, I'm not sure it's worth spending lots on putting credit card systems into buses, etc. when there's already a more than usable system in place.

 

[T McGibney]

This is from 2012, by Transport people in Dresden University:

https://www.greens-efa.eu/legacy/fileadmin/dam/Documents/Studies/Costs_of_cars/The_true_costs_of_cars_EN.pdf

LOL. Your source is literally a Green political lobby group.

The Greens/European Free Alliance (Greens/EFA) is a political group of the European Parliament composed primarily of green and regionalist political parties

 

[MrEarl]

I'm in Dublin, so have good public transport options. Unfortunately, it's usually cheaper for myself, wife and 3 kids to drive (paying for a little petrol and parking) than the cost of the return bus fare for us all for a trip to somewhere in the city. That always feels completely wrong - the incentives/disincentives should push everyone towards sustainable/public transport away from private cars.

I'm also in Dublin, but my post was written with the entire country in mind.

I'm struggling to agree with you, regarding your justification for using your car to go into the city. With the TFI 90 minute cap, it's very good value, and can't cost more than a return journey by car, when you consider fuel, parking, then other costs associated with motoring, can it?

For anyone not familiar with the 90min cap:

TFI 90 Minute Fare - Leap Card

You can use the TFI network around Dublin for 90 Minutes with your TFI Leap Card, for just €2 for adults, €1 for young adults (19-25) or students, and 65 cent for children. TFI 90 applies to most journeys in the Dublin area whether you are using multiple services during 90 minutes or simply...

about.leapcard.ie

 

[jdwex]

I'm really surprised people aren't using Leap Cards - they're great.

From my post above:


Me, I'm not sure it's worth spending lots on putting credit card systems into buses, etc. when there's already a more than usable system in place.

What will come before debit/credit cards is being able to load a virtual Leap card into your wallet on your Android/Iphone.
I have a virtual Clipper card on my phone for when I head off to SF.

The Bay Area's all-in-one transit card

Clipper is the all-in-one transit card used for contactless fare payments throughout the San Francisco Bay Area.

www.clippercard.com

Rather than free fares, I'd prefer if the network was expanded with increased frequency, and more orbitals. That's a bit of a problem at the moment, as there are not enough people who want to drive buses.

 

[Harfang]

Get the taxis out of the bus lanes would help. They are not buses. Why are they , likely with 1 passenger , holding up a bus with 20 30 40 people. Doesn’t make sense.

 

[Purple]

I'm really surprised people aren't using Leap Cards - they're great.

I don't carry any cards. I usually don't carry a wallet. I have my phone, my watch and a small amount of cash.
If a company wants people to use their service they should make sure that common ways of payment are available.

 

[MrEarl]

I don't carry any cards. I usually don't carry a wallet. I have my phone, my watch and a small amount of cash.
If a company wants people to use their service they should make sure that common ways of payment are available.

In fairness, cards are a common way to pay

I use the Leap card myself, and with the ability to top up via the app, it's quite straight forward. Card holders are quite small, so easy enough to keep in your pocket, much smaller than a wallet.

That said, the Leap system is long overdue an upgrade. At the very least, you'd like to see them produce a virtual card that could be used from their app.

Ideally, all transport could be paid for by contactless means, but we'll probably be living on the moon, before that's brought in!

 

[T McGibney]

Ideally, all transport could be paid for by contactless means, but we'll probably be living on the moon, before that's brought in!

I haven't been in London for years but I understand that there are or were problems with contactless Oyster cards failing to log people out as they leave tube stations.

 

[PMU]

This is from 2012, by Transport people in Dresden University:

https://www.greens-efa.eu/legacy/fileadmin/dam/Documents/Studies/Costs_of_cars/The_true_costs_of_cars_EN.pdf

It estimated the cost (of things like road accidents, pollution and noise) per each single citizen (including children) of €750
Without allowing for inflation, the cost for Ireland would be (after taking out the benefit of drivers' insurance contributions):
€3,750m (750*5m people)
(note - this doesn't even include the costs of congestion or of ill-health caused by obesity).

added to the €1,300m you gave and taken from the €2,569, this gives an impressive:
___________________________________________________
(€2,481m) net cost of private car use to us all.
___________________________________________________

Please correct me if I've made a mistake somewhere.

I don't know if you've made a mistake but the Dresden University report, when you look at the total external costs of car ownership table 4 on page 34, Ireland, at 2,890 Mio€, has the lowest of the developed EU countries, and as the 18th of the 27, has costs that are more in keeping with those of the more recent EU members. So there is no reason from this table to indicate that car ownership in Ireland imposes excessive external costs on society, and that the costs imposed are more typical of the lesser developed ex-communist countries, i.e. Slovenia, Lithuania, etc.

For Ireland, cars aren’t really an issue. Ireland has one of the lowest car ownership rates in the EU. We're the 21st., right down there with Croatia and Slovakia. Stock of vehicles at regional level - Statistics Explained (europa.eu). Globally, we’re no. 53 List of countries by vehicles per capita - Wikipedia . And as the aforementioned Dresden report shows the external costs of car ownership are more typical of a less developed European country.

 

[S class]

Is this report by the same company who audited Anglo Irish Bank as healthy before the banking collapse. If it is I would not believe anything contained in it.