"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

[WolfeTone]

Is there a commemoration by Unionist politicians to the soldier who shot Joan Connolly?

I don't know, he has never been identified. There is an on-going cover up. He, for all we know, may have got a promotion or a medal.

Did her killer set out with the expressed intention of killing her that day?

We don't know, because there has never been an investigation into her murder. There is an on-going cover up.

Was he also suspected in up to ten other killings?

I don't know because he has never been identified because of the cover-up of murder.

Excellent questions though.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

It shows the Unionists that the Shinners are looking for a triumph rather than as accommodation.

So true. A chance to shout "Up the 'Ra" and wear a Kingsmills loaf of bread on your head.

 

[Purple]

I don't know, he has never been identified. There is an on-going cover up. He, for all we know, may have got a promotion or a medal.



We don't know, because there has never been an investigation into her murder. There is an on-going cover up.



I don't know because he has never been identified because of the cover-up of murder.

Excellent questions though.

Wow, an answer out of the Shinner playbook.
While the SAS, in their function as the military wing of MI5, certainly engaged in criminality and murdered people I think it is a gross misrepresentation of the truth to suggest that the British Army were deliberately attempting to murder civilians on a daily basis. What is true is that the IRA were certainly actively planning and/or attempting to murder civilians on a daily basis.

 

[WolfeTone]

I think it is a gross misrepresentation of the truth to suggest that the British Army were deliberately attempting to murder civilians on a daily basis

Wow! Straight out of the British propaganda school of massacare cover-ups!
To come out with this in the face of discussing the murder of Joan Connolly as part of the Ballymurphy massacre is astonishing I have to say.

The Ballymurphy massacre was a deliberate attempt to murder civilians on a daily basis!

Between 9th and 11th of August 1971, over 600 British soldiers entered the Ballymurphy area of West Belfast, raiding homes and rounding up men. Many, both young and old, were shot and beaten as they were dragged from their homes without reason. During this 3 day period 11 people were brutally murdered.

It was a sustained murder campaign by armed terrorists. How else would you describe the above?
This followed the mass murder in Derry earlier in the year.

There can be absolutely no doubt that the British Army engaged in the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians intent on murdering them. The BA, and its proxies would adopt, like the IRA, a low-level insurgency against the IRA. Using the loyalist death squads, weapons supply, collusion, shoot-to-kill, torture while the public face of British authoritarianism presented itself as a law and order.

What is true is that the IRA were certainly actively planning and/or attempting to murder civilians on a daily basis.

True to form, GOIRA, PIRA, what's the difference?

 

[WolfeTone]

@Purple I don't particular want to regurgitate the war. I have no truck with the IRA, they are on the same base level as the British Army. The only difference being the British Army take a pensionable wage.

The point I was making is that while no doubt McElwain commemoration is offensive to Unionists, their are many things offensive to republicans also. My view, is let each commemorate their dead and time will be the great healer. Rather than this nonsense of asking MlMcD to apologise for Lord Mount Batten (I think MlMc was about 9yrs old) while Boris, or any other British leader is rarely asked to apologise for atrocities committed here in the name of their army.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@PurpleI have no truck with the IRA...

This alongside a grotesque interpretation of the NI narrative which if even in part valid should make any reasonable person committed supporters of the IRA campaign. Maybe Wolfie is a pacifist not to follow the inexorable logic of his narrative,
This approach of Wolfie is typical of the sickening hypocrisy which I encountered with the so called silent majority of nationalists in NI and which gave the PIRA terrorists such succour for so long.
The telling feature of the SF airbrushing the PIRA campaign is their persistent pursuit of parity of esteem on the atrocity front, they daren't go so far as to claim the Brits were worse. The strong consensus in this jurisdiction and everywhere else (except West Belfast et al) is that the republican campaign was the overwhelming cause of the pointless destruction of lives in the last 25 years of the Troubles.
As I have observed before in these parts, once SF/IRA saw that the terrorist game was up and they had much more to gain through a "peace process" then the violence, all violence, ceased. Was it by mere coincidence that the British Army lost its lust for daily murdering innocent catholics coincidentally with the IRA seeing that the game was up?

 

[WolfeTone]

The telling feature of the SF airbrushing the PIRA campaign is their persistent pursuit of parity of esteem on the atrocity front

This is the big fear of the partitionists, the stickies, the Sindo, Michael McDowell et al, that they are losing control of their narrative.

Only could the debased and brainwashed unemotively distinguish between the atrocities and not equate them on level par. There is no other way for any rational, dignified human being to distinguish between them.

They murdered innocent mothers in cold blood. They disappeared their bodies or they let them bleed to death on the street. They slurred their names with sickening lies and they engage in a continuing cover-up of the truth protecting the perpetrators.

But some still want to peddle a righteous morality of one atrocity over the other.

@Duke of Marmalade, you are just the flip side of that same rotten coin.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

This is the big fear of the partitionists, the stickies, the Sindo, Michael McDowell et al, that they are losing control of their narrative.

Only could the debased and brainwashed unemotively distinguish between the atrocities and not equate them on level par. There is no other way for any rational, dignified human being to distinguish between them.

They murdered innocent mothers in cold blood. They disappeared their bodies or they let them bleed to death on the street. They slurred their names with sickening lies and they engage in a continuing cover-up of the truth protecting the perpetrators.

But some still want to peddle a righteous morality of one atrocity over the other.

@Duke of Marmalade, you are just the flip side of that same rotten coin.

Into your silly phase again, it is becoming quite frequent.
I was talking quantity not quality* (of atrocities).
Apologies for invoking Godwin's Law but I am sure the Brits committed a few atrocities in WWII but which do you think were the worst culprit - the Brits or the Nazis?
Actually that clever little riposte will likely come unstuck as you probably think they were equal.

* though even on quality I don't think there was anything to compare with Kingsmills, Enniskillen, Le Mon etc.

 

[WolfeTone]

though even on quality I don't think there was anything to compare with Kingsmills, Enniskillen

Astonishing. Second time today, despite being laid out above, the Ballymurphy massacre still fails to register.
Still trying to make a distinction between cold blooded murder and cold blooded murder.

Instead, the automatic reversion to point-scoring or trying to distinguish by quality (please! Pass the vomit bucket)

But I sense your rationale for your repulsive-o-meter is in the area of accounting. So let's crunch some numbers?

I will get the ball rolling.

How many people are broadly regarded as being victims of the conflict? 1969-1998
And how many of those victims are generally attributable to the Provos?

 

[WolfeTone]

Actually, rather than go around in circles here is the Wiki source that leans heavily on the CAIN database for all this information.

Conflict Archive on Wiki

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@WolfeTone Something really perplexes me. By your narrative we had a foreign force who got their kicks from the daily massacre of innocent catholics. And yet you have no truck for the only opposition to that, the IRA. How would you suggest that the catholic population should have resisted such MOPE*?
SF buy into your narrative but at least they follow it to its logical conclusion - the IRA were fighting a just war.

* Most Oppressed People Ever.

 

[WolfeTone]

By your narrative we had a foreign force who got their kicks from the daily massacre of innocent catholics.

It's pointless discussing any further. The sustained propaganda and censorship over the course of the conflict is embedded in your mindset, clearly unable to take an objective view.
I have repeatedly made my views on PIRA, GOIRA, British Army, loyalists etc.

I'm in a time of peace. When Her Majesty QE2 came to Dublin and bowed her head to our patriot dead, when she spoke of "With the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we would wish had been done differently, or not at all", it was tacit acknowledgement from the British Crown that all protagonists in the conflict held responsibility, including those under her service.
There is no getting away from this, she acknowledged it.

You can carry on the attempted point scoring, which atrocity outdoes the other. It is part of stale, bankrupt view that is hostage to the past. It is fading, thankfully, although not quickly enough. It continues to cling to moral righteous, being "appalled" because a SF politician commemorates the memory of an IRA volunteer. Or because MLMc didnt directly apologise for an atrocity 40yrs ago. Simultaneously, barely a peep from the same outraged quarter when DUP politicians meet with the local loyalist mafia for guidance on political strategy.
It's a narrative that is worn and tired.

Waterford Whispers News gets it.

 

[Purple]

On this;

barely a peep from the same outraged quarter when DUP politicians meet with the local loyalist mafia for guidance on political strategy.

The DUP are, in my opinion, bigoted god-bothering homophobic racists. I deplore them and what they stand for just as much as I do Sinn Fein and their IRA masters. In that they have, in my view, parity of contempt. The difference is that unlike the Shinners the DUP is not in the Parliament of this country and does not have a realistic chance of forming a government to run this country.


It is worth noting that the recommendation by the Chief Justice of Northern Ireland that an inquest be held into the Ballymurphy Massacre was held up by Arleen Foster and the DUP, not by the British Government (who were, I'm sure, happy to wash their hands of it).

On Mountbatten, it's not up to Mary Lou to apologise; it's up to her masters who should come out of the shadows, show their faces and then have that discussion.

 

[Betsy Og]

The long and short of it is that the RA kept going for about 25 years longer (post Sunningdale) than there was any justification for - they did so without the support of the people (SF barely registered electorally until the hunger strikes, and their political success was initially a reward for stopping the terror). The main army/state agressions were, by then, over (Rape of Falls, Interment, Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy). So what we had after that was mostly the RA engaging in sporadic acts against crown forces (or random protestants), Loyalists being explicitly sectarian.

As someone said on here (Duke I think), when the RA stopped it all stopped. The 'Long War' was a totally pointless exercise.

SF now trying to gaslight us, I dont want Mary Lou apologies, I want the past left in the past so I've zero interest in lauding former gunmen and bombers. How are we going to move on if SF want to keep glorifying and trying to justify the dark deeds of yore?, let it go, move on.

 

[Betsy Og]

"You could say that about the 26 also - independent, sovereign nation, what more could we want?
But poll after poll shows strong support for a UI, not least from yourself."

It's not that the 26 wants anything, we would go along with. Eventually a definitive resolution of the constitutional position of NI (UI) should take away the uncertainty that currently hangs over the 6, BUT the idea was to heal the society first so that a UI would not be such an emotive point in a normally functioning society. We're miles away from that as it is.

If the vote happens it happens, if there's a UI then fine, but there's hard work to be done to make the 6 counties (be they NI or just 6 of 32) work as a normal functioning society, so there's an element of cart before the horse in the rush for a vote. If we got a UI tomorrow there'd be a mountain of work to be done, & with one side up to high doe then I don't fancy our chances of making a success of it. Could we fix the car, & get it through the NCT first, before we buy it.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The long and short of it is that the RA kept going for about 25 years longer (post Sunningdale) than there was any justification for - they did so without the support of the people (SF barely registered electorally until the hunger strikes, and their political success was initially a reward for stopping the terror). The main army/state agressions were, by then, over (Rape of Falls, Interment, Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy). So what we had after that was mostly the RA engaging in sporadic acts against crown forces (or random protestants), Loyalists being explicitly sectarian.

As someone said on here (Duke I think), when the RA stopped it all stopped. The 'Long War' was a totally pointless exercise.

SF now trying to gaslight us, I dont want Mary Lou apologies, I want the past left in the past so I've zero interest in lauding former gunmen and bombers. How are we going to move on if SF want to keep glorifying and trying to justify the dark deeds of yore?, let it go, move on.

Young Betsy, I think we have crossed swords in the past on NI but you've been reading my mail with that post

 

[Purple]

It's not that the 26 wants anything, we would go along with. Eventually a definitive resolution of the constitutional position of NI (UI) should take away the uncertainty that currently hangs over the 6, BUT the idea was to heal the society first so that a UI would not be such an emotive point in a normally functioning society. We're miles away from that as it is.

Well said and with the Shinners picking at old wounds and the DUP kicking out Arleen because she's not bigoted enough it seems that both parties are working towards the same goal for very different reasons. The DUP want division to prevent a United Ireland from ever happening and the Shinners want to prevent it from happening until they are in power.

That's an important point in all this; the Shinners are all about being in power. That's all they want and everything else is just a means to that end. That's why they project an image of liberal inclusiveness but their members continuously display deeply racist and bigoted views. That's why they claim to be socialist but oppose socialist policies like property taxes and water charges. They are a populist party with a casual relationship with the truth, law and order and democracy who prey on the gullible and the disenfranchised. They frighten me and they want to run my country.

 

[WolfeTone]

The difference is that unlike the Shinners the DUP is not in the Parliament of this country

I am familiar with the partitionist mindset. If its happening 'up there', well for sure its not nice, but just as long as I'm alright Jack and its not in my back yard, then so be it.

The long and short of it is that the RA kept going for about 25 years longer (post Sunningdale)

We are obviously going to disagree. Sunningdale was collapsed by the Ulster's Workers Council who called a general strike crippling NI economy forcing the collapse of the administration.
As a side, I happened across "The Irish Munitions Embargo, 1920", of how Irish railway and transport workers brought British military operations to a standstill.
The boycott went from May 1920 up to Dec 1920. It was actions like these that let Britain know that Ireland was lost.
The official narrative of IRA freedom fighters suits those who hold power. Because warfare is extreme, it is a much less likely occurrence for resolving injustices . Peaceful union agitation and solidarity is much more effective and easier to mobilise and arrange.
But it suits people in power and authority to peddle the warfare tactics of the IRA as being the catalyst of Irish independence.
It wasn't, it was peaceful agitation by workers and civilians who crippled British military and judicial systems.

SF barely registered electorally until the hunger strikes,

In fairness to them, SF was a banned organisation in NI. The public display of Irish Tricolour, illegal, was considered a 'provocative act' by police.
Kind of hard to mobilise politically with that kind authoritarian, racist mindset in charge.

The main army/state agressions were, by then, over (Rape of Falls, Interment, Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy).

This is bizarre. This topic has re-emerge because of a SF rep commemorating the memory of an IRA volunteer killed 35yrs ago. "... shows the Unionists that SF are looking for triumph rather than accommodation...", someone said earlier.

But now you are suggesting that by the time Sunningdale happened (internment wasn't finished), that mass atrocities of BA that occurred only a couple of years earlier were over so it was time for everyone to move on?
What sort of logic is that. One of the biggest terrorist atrocities occurred on 17 May 1974 against innocent people of Dublin on Monaghan.
But because Sunningdale was written on paper, therefore everyone should move along now, nothing to see here?

BUT the idea was to heal the society first so that a UI would not be such an emotive point in a normally functioning society. We're miles away from that as it is.

I don't disagree. Perhaps NI in its political and religious formation of Green and Orange, Catholic and Protestant divide is unsuitable to ever really heal.
Efforts to plan a new Ireland to accommodate all, religious and political viewpoints needs to be discussed. I think while SF are flying the border poll kite there is more than an element of realism that it is simply not going to occur Brexit style.
Others need to step up to the mark but they are few and far between. In fairness, Jim O'Callaghan FF has put forward his vision. Also Neale Richmond FG has put a paper forward. There are also soundbites from Peter Robinson, Trimble, and Paisley Jnr about some sort of future accommodation.

If the vote happens it happens, if there's a UI then fine, but there's hard work to be done to make the 6 counties (be they NI or just 6 of 32) work as a normal functioning society, so there's an element of cart before the horse in the rush for a vote.

I don't disagree. I do think the SF border poll calls are sabre rattling. Brexit has opened the door to the topic and it is their raison d'etre, so not surprising they are loudest about it. If they continue to grow in the polls, then it forces others to sit up and take notice.
SF know there will never be a UI on their terms. MLMc has said as much, it has to accommodate everyone insofar as practical.
Incidentally, should the SF Holy grail of an Irish Republic ever emerge, what basis for their existence then?
SF as a nationalist party like FF before them, have right-wing conservative and left-wing socialist factions.
In a UI, those factions will split. Ditto, Unionist/British factions.

 

[Purple]

I am familiar with the partitionist mindset. If its happening 'up there', well for sure its not nice, but just as long as I'm alright Jack and its not in my back yard, then so be it.

I'm familiar with people being deliberately obtuse. If its happening 'up there', well for sure its not nice, but only an idiot or those utterly blinded by ideology could possibly think that anyone other that those who are 'up there' can be the authors of their own salvation or damnation. As long as the two largest political parties in what is a failed economic and political entity are hell bent on mutual destruction then the least we try to impose a solution the better.
I like the way this country has changed in the last 30 years. I like our more liberal, inclusive and multicultural approach. I just finished a book called The Darkening Age about the Christianisation of Rome and the Latin world. It was harrowing and upsetting to know that 99% of all Latin science and philosophy and 90% of all Greek science and philosophy was lost due to the darkness of religion descending over Europe. It was like seeing what would happen if ISIS conquered the know world. It took us over a thousand years to recover. I don't want any part of the bigotry of religion poisoning my life or the lives of the people I love. The fact that Arleen Foster will lose her job as much for abstaining in a vote to ban the vile practice of Gay conversion therapy for children is an inditement of those who want their version of '(Protestant) Christian Values' central to the political process.
The level of racism and homophobia shown by the Shinners isn't far behind them, despite their public pronouncements to the contrary.
I'll pay higher taxes and subsidise their mess of an economy if they agree to walk away from their tribalism, criminality and religious bigotry. On that basis I'll vote for a United Ireland but at the moment the culture of both tribes in Northern Ireland is poisonous.

 

[Betsy Og]

But now you are suggesting that by the time Sunningdale happened (internment wasn't finished), that mass atrocities of BA that occurred only a couple of years earlier were over so it was time for everyone to move on?

What sort of logic is that. One of the biggest terrorist atrocities occurred on 17 May 1974 against innocent people of Dublin on Monaghan.
But because Sunningdale was written on paper, therefore everyone should move along now, nothing to see here?

The point was that everything that could be realistically achieved had been achieved in Sunningdale, that's why GFA was dubbed Sunningdale for slow learners. Also, this was in the context of RA being on a rampage in '73 & '74, there was no question of a peace dividend for unionists, so the UWC strike was a relatively easy sell. If Provisional SF had done their gun bargaining in '73 instead of '98 they probably would have improved on Sunningdale and there was a fair chance it would have stuck - DUP opposed GFA too remember.

But PSF demanded a 32 county socialist republic, entirely on their terms, as is the PSF way it's just about what they want, not what voters want or would benefit society. All this dragging out of decommissioning eroded UUP, it suits PSF to be facing DUP, easier rally the sectarian headcount. So other than the silence of the guns we eventually got, I'm not sure what PSF has to offer beyond historical rewriting.

As for Dublin & Monaghan, collusion between Loyalists & elements of the security forces, it was the Omagh of its day, but neither event would be justification for 'armed struggle'. There's no justice or resolution, just more innocent blood. I've read Don Mullan's book on Dublin & Monaghan, the botched investigation and treatment of the families was (& is) a disgrace.