RIC Commemoration

[Purple]

Stanley's comment was stupid.
In a historical context, on the anniversary of Kilmichael, he is totally within his right to make a comparison between the Kilmichael ambush and Warrenpoint insofar that the partition of Ireland was not the solution to end our troubles on this island.

The manner in which he made his comparison was stupid, in tweet form and with an obvious dig at the British while lording over the graves of the dead.

It is all the more regrettable that it may have detracted somewhat from the abhorrent and insulting decision of the British government not hold a public inquiry into the murder of Pat Finucane.

In scenes echoing the events of Collins Squad on Bloody Sunday, Finucanes front door was smashed down and shot twice and as he lay on the floor another 12 bullets were fired into his face from close range.

All in front of his family.

I suppose the difference is that no member of parliament in the UK is celebrating Pat Finucanes murder in the way that the TD from the Child Killers is celebrating the murder of the soldiers at Kilmichael.
Given that the nominal leader of his party frequently says that there is no hierarchy amongst the victims of the Troubles I presume he, along with Mary Lou, is happy to equate the murder of Pat Finucane and the Para's killed at Kilmichael.

 

[WolfeTone]

I suppose the difference is that no member of parliament in the UK is celebrating Pat Finucanes murder

They might not have celebrated it publicly, but Douglas Hoggs comments, Home Office Minister at the time, that "some solicitors were sympathetic to the IRA" in House of Commons was an official briefing and not an off-the-cuff remark. That Finucane was murdered three weeks later by agents of the British State says to me that while there was no public glorification of it, there was some chinking of glasses at high levels of power.
They may not admit it publicly, obviously, as they refuse to initiate a public inquiry recommended by their own Supreme Court, but privately I think anyone would celebrate achieving their goals?

Given that the nominal leader of his party frequently says that there is no hierarchy amongst the victims of the Troubles I presume he, along with Mary Lou, is happy to equate the murder of Pat Finucane and the Para's killed at Kilmichael.

Finucane was a civilian, not a combatant.

 

[Purple]

They might not have celebrated it publicly, but Douglas Hoggs comments, Home Office Minister at the time, that "some solicitors were sympathetic to the IRA" in House of Commons was an official briefing and not an off-the-cuff remark. That Finucane was murdered three weeks later by agents of the British State says to me that while there was no public glorification of it, there was some chinking of glasses at high levels of power.
They may not admit it publicly, obviously, as they refuse to initiate a public inquiry recommended by their own Supreme Court, but privately I think anyone would celebrate achieving their goals?

I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise.

Finucane was a civilian, not a combatant.

Does that mean that there is a hierarchy of victims of the Troubles?
The IRA were/are (they haven't gone away you know) also civilians and terrorists and had no mandate from anyone to murder soldiers or anyone else.

The Sinn Fein of the 1920's which became Fianna Fail, were supported by the majority of the people of the country. Their goal was achievable and they didn't deliberately murder children or civilians in general.

 

[WolfeTone]

Does that mean that there is a hierarchy of victims of the Troubles?

For me yes, innocent civilians first, combatants second.

had no mandate from anyone to murder soldiers or anyone else.

Nobody had a mandate to murder anybody.

The Sinn Fein of the 1920's

Popular support arose from the ashes of the 1916 Rising, a military coup that had no mandate, no popular support, only retrospective support.

Their goal was achievable

They failed in their goal, as has every military effort, before and after, to remove British rule from the island of Ireland.

and they didn't deliberately murder children or civilians in general.

The "good old" IRA of the WoI engaged in sectarian murder, kidnapping of civilians, torture and murder of alleged informers and disappeared bodies of the dead. Some as young as 17yrs of age, children in fact, and quite deliberate so.

 

[Purple]

For me yes, innocent civilians first, combatants second.

Okay. The Child Killers disagree with you. When it suits them.

Nobody had a mandate to murder anybody.

True. Every IRA killing was murder. Most Security Force killings were not.

Popular support arose from the ashes of the 1916 Rising, a military coup that had no mandate, no popular support, only retrospective support.

True. SF/IRA carried on for 30 years without and mandate, popular support or retrospective support. They didn't even have the support of a majority of their community.

They failed in their goal, as has every military effort, before and after, to remove British rule from the island of Ireland.

No, they gained the freedom of what is now this country. Michael Collins and his side betrayed the Nationalist population of what is now the province of Northern Ireland. Maybe he was right, maybe he wasn't.

The "good old" IRA of the WoI engaged in sectarian murder, kidnapping of civilians, torture and murder of alleged informers and disappeared bodies of the dead. Some as young as 17yrs of age, children in fact, and quite deliberate so.

They didn't target civilians in the way Sinn Fein/IRA did. Suggesting that they did is nonsense. They certainly killed 17 year olds but they didn't murder 3 year olds and 12 year olds who were are the shop with their parents.

 

[WolfeTone]

Okay. The Child Killers disagree with you. When it suits them.

Who are the 'child killers'?

True. Every IRA killing was murder. Most Security Force killings were not.

So you think the ambush at Kilmichael and the basically the whole WoI was an illegal murderous campaign?

No, they gained the freedom of what is now this country.

Yes, but 'this country' was not their goal.

They didn't target civilians in the way Sinn Fein/IRA did. Suggesting that they did is nonsense. They certainly killed 17 year olds but they didn't murder 3 year olds and 12 year olds who were are the shop with their parents.

Thomas Clarke, veteran leader of the 1916 Rising and participant of the Fenian campaign of 1881 to 85 planted bombs in public areas such as train stations, town halls and bridges. In one such incident a 14yr old boy was killed from a bomb attack. Peversely, Clarke has had bridges and train stations named after him in this country.

 

[Purple]

Who are the 'child killers'?

The IRA and their political wing Sinn Fein. When the Army Council are not the power behind the throne and SF's leaders don't go to the funerals of murderers and they don't have former bomb makers in theri ranks I'll stop calling them that. It's the same as someone who used to rape children and doesn't anymore but is unapologetic about their crimes should be called out for it, as should the people who facilitate and support him.

So you think the ambush at Kilmichael and the basically the whole WoI was an illegal murderous campaign?

Sorry, I was mixing myself up. I meant to say Warrenpoint, not Kilmichael.

Yes, but 'this country' was not their goal.

I know. As I said Collins sold out the North.

Thomas Clarke, veteran leader of the 1916 Rising and participant of the Fenian campaign of 1881 to 85 planted bombs in public areas such as train stations, town halls and bridges. In one such incident a 14yr old boy was killed from a bomb attack. Peversely, Clarke has had bridges and train stations named after him in this country.

Indeed. Clarke and

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

insofar that the partition of Ireland was not the solution to end our troubles on this island.

That is oh so last millenium.

We have worked too hard to finally have Ireland solved

The final solution that Joe is referring to is based on partition, so long as the majority in NI so wish to be partitioned.

 

[Purple]

That is oh so last millenium.

The solution is based on partition, so long as the majority in NI so wish to be partitioned.

The Child Killers relationship with democracy is casual enough. It's a means to an end for them.

 

[WolfeTone]

I don't really get your position @Purple. On the one hand you seem to be legitimising the ambush at Kilmichael but not Warrenpoint? Both were IRA attacks on armed British personnel during times of conflict.
As far as hierarchy is concerned, I have always understood the SF position to be that innocent victims of the IRA should not be placed on a pedestal above innocent victims of British State terrorism - that makes sense to me.

The child killer reference is odd, insofar that it is specific to Sinn Fein only, but not associated with any other protagonists of the conflict, namely the British State who also killed children directly, or through their loyalist proxies, and then protected the killers from seeing justice. They too, still have their military and intelligence apparatus of the conflict in tact directing the operations of the political establishment. As witnessed by the all the continued cover-ups from Ballymurphy, to Miami Showband, to Dublin/Monaghan, Loughinisland, Pat Finucane etc...etc...

Surely anyone, or any organisation, that is involved in killing children are child killers?

That is oh so last millenium.

Indeed it is. Thankfully we have arrived at a position where the absence of war prevails and that the border is nothing more than abstract notion in our mnids. Where people can live, work and travel freely across the border without much a fuss.

What could possibly go wrong ?

The final solution that Joe is referring to is based on partition, so long as the majority in NI so wish to be partitioned.

Yep, and given the majority in NI do not wish to be partitioned from the EU, perhaps it is time to ask the question about partition in Ireland?

 

[Purple]

The child killer reference is odd, insofar that it is specific to Sinn Fein only, but not associated with any other protagonists of the conflict, namely the British State who also killed children directly, or through their loyalist proxies, and then protected the killers from seeing justice.

They aren't in the parliament of this country and don't have aspirations to rule us.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Yep, and given the majority in NI do not wish to be partitioned from the EU, perhaps it is time to ask the question about partition in Ireland?

NI voted Remain because a sufficient minority of unionists saw that as the rational choice (nationalists were almost 100% Remain as they saw it as anti Brit). You seriously misunderstand the unionist mindset if you think even a fraction of this minority of unionists put their EUness ahead of their Britishness. A border poll would fail now for sure. If I were a unionist I would be pushing for such a poll but on the same terms of the Scottish ref i.e. a once in a generation event.

 

[WolfeTone]

They aren't in the parliament of this country and don't have aspirations to rule us.

What has that got to do with qualifying as being child killers or not?

They killed children in 'this country', notably in the Dublin Monaghan bombings,

- Jacqueline (17 months) & Anne-Marie (5 months) O'Brien.
- plus an unborn baby

By any definition, they are child killers and still have the apparatus in place to deny justice to the victims. And we as a State, recognise their legitimacy to govern over our people.

 

[Purple]

By any definition, they are child killers and still have the apparatus in place to deny justice to the victims.

Their politicians don't carry the coffins and go to the funerals of the people who planted the bombs.

And we as a State, recognise their legitimacy to govern over our people.

No we don't. As a State we recognise that they are not our people. You or I may not like that but that's the way it is.

 

[WolfeTone]

You seriously misunderstand the unionist mindset if you think even a fraction of this minority of unionists put their EUness ahead of their Britishness. A border poll would fail now for sure. If I were a unionist I would be pushing for such a poll but on the same terms of the Scottish ref i.e. a once in a generation event.

I don't under estimate it all. I have long considered it a bit of an oddity that SF are very vocal in pushing for a border poll and that Unionists are dead set against it, considering the liklihood of its failure.
The only logical conclusion I can come to is that if Unionists were ever to contest border referendum then it sets the precedent for all other future referendums, that is, they could not with any credibility point to one referendum as legitimate (where they are successful) and then point to another future referendum as illegitimate (where they are unsuccessful).
Nope, from a Unionist perspective, best not to have any referendum at all, ever.

United Irelanders only need to get it right once, Partitionists need to win all the time.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Forget the apology. Sinn Fein seem to firmly believe that the PIRA campaign was a glorious affair. I am not a great fan of the WoI but the idea that there is equivalence between that IRA and the PIRA either in terms of their moral justification or in terms of their democratic legitimacy or in terms of what they achieved (absolutely nothing) is nonsense.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

United Irelanders only need to get it right once, Partitionists need to win all the time.

We only need to get lucky once, you need to be lucky all the time.

 

[WolfeTone]

Their politicians don't carry the coffins and go to the funerals of the people who planted the bombs.

Well that is simply not true. Off the top of my head, David Ervine was a convicted member of the UVF at the time they were planting bombs killing children. Elected politicians of the British parliament attended his funeral.

No we don't. As a State we recognise that they are not our people. You or I may not like that but that's the way it is.

Thats right, Collins sold them out.
You set a peculiar criteria for labelling people as child killers...I just use the tried and trusted method, if you kill a child you are a child killer...simple enough. Political status or funeral record attendance is all whataboutery.

 

[Purple]

I just use the tried and trusted method, if you kill a child you are a child killer...simple enough. Political status or funeral record attendance is all whataboutery.

See it's that sort of twisted logic that makes the Shinners unelectable for people who are real republicans and democrats in that they understand what both things actually mean.
I haven't heard any Tory or Labour politician justifying the action of the UVF. I haven't heard any of them fail to condemn the actions of the UVF. I've never heard any of the Shinners condemn the murder of children by their military wing. That's why I think that it is appropriate to refer to them as the child killers.
As for the Parties in Northern Ireland? The place is an economic and political basket case, a failed entity. With the exception of the SDLP I've little or no time for any of them.

 

[WolfeTone]

I haven't heard any Tory or Labour politician justifying the action of the UVF.

They don't govern over the UVF. When was the last time (or first time) you heard a Tory or Labour government minister condemn the British Army (who killed children) in Ireland, or anywhere around the world for that matter.

I haven't heard any Tory or Labour politician justifying the action of the UVF.

You have heard them justify the actions of the British Army (who killed children).

See it's that sort of twisted logic that makes the Shinners unelectable for people who are real republicans and democrats in that they understand what both things actually mean.

Your entitled to your views, but it is the people of Ireland that will the determine the logic of it all. I simply think your logic is extremely twisted. The reference 'Child Killers' is clearly a highly charged and emotive term designed to provoke. But your criteria for applying it is based on political bias and nothing else. The truth is that child victims of British Army, and their proxies in UVF, are as every bit a tragedy of this conflict as the child victims of the IRA. Its this attempt to put innocent victims of the IRA on a pedestal above innocent victims of the British military apparatus that will not go unchallenged. There should be no hierarchy of victims in this regard.