WHats the strategy in calling an election for BJ?

[Purple]

Corbyn and the Labour party have been forthright in their condemnation of anti-Semitism within the Labour party and anywhere else for that matter.

He said it after senior people left the party in protest about his failure to criticise what they said was a deep rooted culture of anti semitism which was flourishing under his leadership. Whether it's forthright or not is a matter of opinion.

Corbyn has given an explicit apology for the failures of the Labour party and leadership for not dealing sooner with accusations of anti-Semitism in the Labour party, a failure that he and the party have been rightly criticised for.

He's never apologised for his explicit support for terrorists who made killing Jews their life's work. I think his dislike of jewish people is linked to a deeply bigoted and ignorant view about them controlling banking and international finance.

But in no way shape or form can this failure, in consideration of long-standing and continuing party policy and activism, be reasonably be deduced as anti-Semitic.

Corbyn's activism is all about ruling Labour with an iron fist, rooting out the moderates and re-making it as a marxist-socialist party which, hopefully, is completely unelectable.

 

[WolfeTone]

what they said was a deep rooted culture of anti semitism

What "they said" and what is actual fact are two separate things. The term "deep rooted" is subjective.
It is my view the only thing that is deep rooted in the Labour party, in the context of this discussion, is its policy against racism, such as anti-Semitism.
My view, that anti-Semitism is marginal and very much on the fringes of the UK Labour party. It is no more, no less an issue with the Labour party than is with British society in general.
This view is supported by the UK Parliament Home Affairs Select committee inquiry into anti-Semitism. It concluded that Britain has the least issue of anti-Semitism in Europe.

He's never apologised for his explicit support for terrorists who made killing Jews their life's work.

Did he ever explicitly supported terrorists who made killing Jews their lifes work?

I think his dislike of jewish people is linked to a deeply bigoted and ignorant view about them controlling banking and international finance.

What evidence do you have that Corbyn has a dislike of Jews, relative to the evidence that shows his support of Jews?

Corbyn's activism is all about ruling Labour with an iron fist, rooting out the moderates and re-making it as a marxist-socialist party which, hopefully, is completely unelectable.

None of which points to anti-Semitism, but it does point to the real agenda of the Blairite wing of Labour.
The anti-Semitic tag is a useful tool to beat down on Corbyns leadership.
Im not saying he hasn't handled the issue well, far from it, he has made a dogs dinner of it.
But the evidence that either Corbyn or Labour party, or both, are deep-rooted in anti-Semitism is next to non-existent. I certainly haven't seen it.

 

[Ceist Beag]

The one thing the electorate won't factor in here is that Brexit is permanent (or at least it will be a substantial period before it is revisited) whereas the next leader could be gone within a year! If people genuinely want to remain (I'm not sure a majority do given all they have been through) they should vote Lib Dems and damn the consequences in terms of the government.
But people won't think like that.

 

[EmmDee]

One thing that seems to be pushed is a criticism of Israel is considered anti Semitic which of it is not

That's clear. But that isn't the issue in the Labour party. What has been happening over the last few years is that critique of Israel has morphed into anti-semitic tropes; which is to say that commentary ahs moved away from "Israel" to "Jews". And also an increase in early 20th century imagery and comments about "Jewish conspiracies" - the usual "Soros" thing

Corbyn is not anti-Semitic, neither is the UK Labour party.
Certainly, some members who joined up have expressed anti-Semitic rhetoric and should be rightly condemned. The Labour party and Corbyn should be rightly criticised for not heeding the reports of anti-semitism within the Labour party and dealing with it more promptly and effectively.

A bit more nuanced than that though - there has always been a wing in the hard left who peddle in what I mention above. They were largely removed from the Labour party in the late 80's / 90's. But they were always around. There has been an influx back into the party since 2016 and this is what they are trying to deal with.

I think they had lost the institutional memory to even recognise this faction and certainly the processes weren't up to dealing with it quickly. But I think Corbyn's problem is that he doesn't even see it... to the extent that at his launch last week of the "Race and Faith Policy" (designed to tackle this issue), one of people on the stage (who is a candidate) had posted about "Zionist Masters" and had to apologise for it. And when they asked if anyone from the Jewish News was in the room during the press questions (and nobody was), there were shouts of "Good" from the supporters. It's this type of thing that he hasn't sorted out.

But on the broader question of his electability - I don't think this will really be the key issue. Don't underestimate the pure distaste moderate England has for him and his political background. Anyone who recalls Labour prior to Kinnock find him tough to digest. And I think that could be his problem - some people will vote Conservative because they couldn't bear to put him into No 10. Whether that outweighs those that will hold their nose and vote for Labour is the interesting thing to play out - and I suspect the polls to date are phony wars... the next week will see a lot of people having to decide which crap option they will take. It's Realpolitik now

 

[WolfeTone]

There has been an influx back into the party since 2016 and this is what they are trying to deal with.

There hasn't. It is marginal, on the fringes. It has emerged on a couple of occasions from candidates selected at local elections. It was the failure of the party to address this that leads to genuine criticism.
This however is being disingenuously conflated as "deep rooted", "institutional", etc by political enemies for narrow political agendas.

had posted about "Zionist Masters" and had to apologise for it.

Being anti-Zionist is not anti-Semitic.
Its true, many Jewish people identify themselves as Zionists. But many, and not an insignificant amount, also do not identify as such. There are also Jews who believe that the state of Israel can only be delivered by the coming of the Messiah and that the Israel we know of today is fraudulent. Are these people anti-Semitic too?
The term "Zionist masters" may illicit anti-Jew connotations and is by its application derogatory towards those who support the continued establishment and advancement of the State of Israel. But by itself is not anti-Semitic.

And when they asked if anyone from the Jewish News was in the room during the press questions (and nobody was), there were shouts of "Good" from the supporters.

The Jewish News is a newspaper with an agenda of propagating the Labour anti-Semitic label.
Not being open to warmly embrace members of a publication that consistently conflates anti-Semitism in the Labour party is not anti-Semitic.

Don't underestimate the pure distaste moderate England has for him and his political background.

And ultimately, we arrive at the real agenda (again). That is, to make sure Labour dont get into 10 Downing St under Corbyns leadership.
Its no coincidence when listening to the allegations of anti-Semitism in Labour party that such criticism tend to divert to criticisms of Corbyns socialist policies.
This is the real agenda.

 

[EmmDee]

Being anti-Zionist is not anti-Semitic.
Its true, many Jewish people identify themselves as Zionists. But many, and not an insignificant amount, also do not identify as such. There are also Jews who believe that the state of Israel can only be delivered by the coming of the Messiah and that the Israel we know of today is fraudulent. Are these people anti-Semitic too?
The term "Zionist masters" may illicit anti-Jew connotations and is by its application derogatory towards those who support the continued establishment and advancement of the State of Israel. But by itself is not anti-Semitic.

Hmmmm - it's a well know trope. I think Corbyn does try to explain these things away (a bit like the mural a year or two ago) by making these types definitional explanations. But phrases like the above pre date WW2 and have always been used in conjunction with an anti-Semitic political movement. They are dog-whistles. And maybe Corbyn doesn't see this and genuinely can't see the problem. But he needs to do a lot more.

On the other side - there is equal levels of delusion and blindness in the Tories over Muslims and other issues. This isn't limited to one party

The Jewish News is a newspaper with an agenda of propagating the Labour anti-Semitic label.
Not being open to warmly embrace members of a publication that consistently conflates anti-Semitism in the Labour party is not anti-Semitic.

I get that - but this was a press event to launch a policy. And from the podium there was obviously an interest to engage that part of the press. It just looks bad - like they can't control their own. He did say something to the crowd when Kuenssberg asked a question and they started to Boo her. If you're holding a press event - don't invite Militant for God's sake

Brexit Party had a similar issue recently. It just looks dreadful

And ultimately, we arrive at the real agenda (again). That is, to make sure Labour dont get into 10 Downing St under Corbyns leadership.
Its no coincidence when listening to the allegations of anti-Semitism in Labour party that such criticism tend to divert to criticisms of Corbyns socialist policies.
This is the real agenda.

This is PART of the agenda. Yes there is a reaction to his brand of policies. But they were hardly going to vote for him anyway. But there is also a segment of the electorate who are looking for a way of not voting for BJ. I just don't think Corbyn is hitting home - he definitely will lock down parts of his core. But there has to be questions how he isn't close to a majority. He's struggling to hold seats in traditional Labour heartlands

HOWEVER - as I said, up to now I think the polls are reflecting how people would like to vote in an ideal world. Over the next week it becomes real and in many areas, people are going to have to make hard choices. And possibly Labour win seats they currently aren't looking like winning.

 

[WolfeTone]

They are dog-whistles

I agree, it is a stupid and naive comment to make. It is not anti-Semitic, but it is open to being interpreted as such.

If you're holding a press event - don't invite Militant for God's sake

If you're holding a press event - don't invite Militant for God's sake

Brexit Party had a similar issue recently. It just looks dreadful

I agree, it looks dreadful. Corbyn and party leadership have made a dogs dinner of the anti-Semitic issue.
My point is that, despite all of that, neither Corbyn nor the Labour party are deep rooted in anti-Semitism. The opposite in fact, which only goes to emphasise the woeful handling of the issue by Corbyn.

 

[odyssey06]

Never mind New Labour, I don't think Corbyn even reconciled himself to the Labour of Kinnock, Wilson, Foot, Callaghan etc

 

[Seagull]

Even the looney left of the 60s/70s would consider Corbyn a radical extremist.

 

[Purple]

I agree, it is a stupid and naive comment to make. It is not anti-Semitic, but it is open to being interpreted as such.

I think it's fair to say that it probably isn't anti-semitic but it might be.

I agree, it looks dreadful. Corbyn and party leadership have made a dogs dinner of the anti-Semitic issue.
My point is that, despite all of that, neither Corbyn nor the Labour party are deep rooted in anti-Semitism. The opposite in fact, which only goes to emphasise the woeful handling of the issue by Corbyn.

I don't see how you could say that the are the opposite of anti-semitic. If that is the case why have life long MP's and other party members who are jewish left in protest?

 

[WolfeTone]

I don't see how you could say that the are the opposite of anti-semitic. If that is the case why have life long MP's and other party members who are jewish left in protest?

Corbyns record for standing in solidarity with minority groupings, including Jews, against human rights abuses over the last 40yrs is open for all to see.
Its his handling of allegations of anti-Semitism within the Labour party that is under fire. I say 'allegations' because while no doubt some moronic attitudes have come to the fore, it is mostly on the fringes and margins of the Labour party.
This, is quite opposite from the allegation of former Labour MP Louise Ellman, who claimed that under Corbyn, anti-Semitism had become "mainstream" in the Labour party - it hasn't. Borne out by the UK Home Affairs Select committee inquiry into anti-Semitism that found that anti-Semitism was less of an issue in British society than most European countries and is not centred with any particular grouping.

"120.Despite significant press and public attention on the Labour Party, and a number of revelations regarding inappropriate social media content, there exists no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party.

121.A representative YouGov poll carried out in May 2016 found that Labour voters were no more likely than voters from other parties to express antisemitic attitudes, with UKIP voters demonstrating the highest levels of antisemitism.

122.Other political parties have not been immune to accusations of antisemitism, albeit apparently with a smaller number of reported incidents,

129.Other political parties must not assume that antisemitic political discourse is an issue affecting the Labour Party alone. The Liberal Democrats in particular should pay heed to the need to act swiftly and decisively to deal with antisemitism within their ranks. We were disappointed by the manner in which their Leader, Tim Farron, referred to disciplinary processes rather than explicitly condemning antisemitic remarks made by members of his Party, "
(Bold is from the publication)

So when I hear MPs leaving the Labour party because of "mainstream" anti-Semitism, I am skeptical of their ulterior motives.
It wasn't just Jewish MPs that left the Labour party under Corbyn.
The anti-Semitic tag is the stick to beat Corbyn with, the real agenda is to stop him entering number 10 and implementing programs of social justice for the people of Britain.

 

[WolfeTone]

Six days to go, Corbyn going for the jugular - effectively calling Johnson out as delusional liar by releasing "secret" Tory papers.

Is anybody paying attention?

 

[EmmDee]

Corbyns record for standing in solidarity with minority groupings, including Jews, against human rights abuses over the last 40yrs is open for all to see.
Its his handling of allegations of anti-Semitism within the Labour party that is under fire. I say 'allegations' because while no doubt some moronic attitudes have come to the fore, it is mostly on the fringes and margins of the Labour party.
This, is quite opposite from the allegation of former Labour MP Louise Ellman, who claimed that under Corbyn, anti-Semitism had become "mainstream" in the Labour party - it hasn't. Borne out by the UK Home Affairs Select committee inquiry into anti-Semitism that found that anti-Semitism was less of an issue in British society than most European countries and is not centred with any particular grouping.

"120.Despite significant press and public attention on the Labour Party, and a number of revelations regarding inappropriate social media content, there exists no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party.

121.A representative YouGov poll carried out in May 2016 found that Labour voters were no more likely than voters from other parties to express antisemitic attitudes, with UKIP voters demonstrating the highest levels of antisemitism.

122.Other political parties have not been immune to accusations of antisemitism, albeit apparently with a smaller number of reported incidents,

129.Other political parties must not assume that antisemitic political discourse is an issue affecting the Labour Party alone. The Liberal Democrats in particular should pay heed to the need to act swiftly and decisively to deal with antisemitism within their ranks. We were disappointed by the manner in which their Leader, Tim Farron, referred to disciplinary processes rather than explicitly condemning antisemitic remarks made by members of his Party, "
(Bold is from the publication)

So when I hear MPs leaving the Labour party because of "mainstream" anti-Semitism, I am skeptical of their ulterior motives.
It wasn't just Jewish MPs that left the Labour party under Corbyn.
The anti-Semitic tag is the stick to beat Corbyn with, the real agenda is to stop him entering number 10 and implementing programs of social justice for the people of Britain.

Have a read of the submission to the EHRC. While only a submission, there are very specific examples. There are definite themes which don't seem to be getting addressed.

 

[EmmDee]

Six days to go, Corbyn going for the jugular - effectively calling Johnson out as delusional liar by releasing "secret" Tory papers.

Is anybody paying attention?

Probably not. I thought at the beginning of the campaign that it would be another hung parliament. But Labour seem to be losing their own voters.

 

[WolfeTone]

Have a read of the submission to the EHRC. While only a submission, there are very specific examples. There are definite themes which don't seem to be getting addressed.

Whose submission?

 

[Purple]

Corbyns record for standing in solidarity with minority groupings, including Jews, against human rights abuses over the last 40yrs is open for all to see.
Its his handling of allegations of anti-Semitism within the Labour party that is under fire. I say 'allegations' because while no doubt some moronic attitudes have come to the fore, it is mostly on the fringes and margins of the Labour party.
This, is quite opposite from the allegation of former Labour MP Louise Ellman, who claimed that under Corbyn, anti-Semitism had become "mainstream" in the Labour party - it hasn't. Borne out by the UK Home Affairs Select committee inquiry into anti-Semitism that found that anti-Semitism was less of an issue in British society than most European countries and is not centred with any particular grouping.

"120.Despite significant press and public attention on the Labour Party, and a number of revelations regarding inappropriate social media content, there exists no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party.

121.A representative YouGov poll carried out in May 2016 found that Labour voters were no more likely than voters from other parties to express antisemitic attitudes, with UKIP voters demonstrating the highest levels of antisemitism.

122.Other political parties have not been immune to accusations of antisemitism, albeit apparently with a smaller number of reported incidents,

129.Other political parties must not assume that antisemitic political discourse is an issue affecting the Labour Party alone. The Liberal Democrats in particular should pay heed to the need to act swiftly and decisively to deal with antisemitism within their ranks. We were disappointed by the manner in which their Leader, Tim Farron, referred to disciplinary processes rather than explicitly condemning antisemitic remarks made by members of his Party, "
(Bold is from the publication)

So when I hear MPs leaving the Labour party because of "mainstream" anti-Semitism, I am skeptical of their ulterior motives.
It wasn't just Jewish MPs that left the Labour party under Corbyn.
The anti-Semitic tag is the stick to beat Corbyn with, the real agenda is to stop him entering number 10 and implementing programs of social justice for the people of Britain.

You're referencing a report from an investigation from 2016, 3 years ago and 2 years before the current allegations came to light.
The report was published in October 2016 so the investigation obviously predates that.

 

[Purple]

Corbyn is a nasty, humourless, marxist bully. He may well also be an anti-semite. He is the reason that Labour will lose and Brexit will happen.

 

[WolfeTone]

You're referencing a report from an investigation from 2016, 3 years ago and 2 years before the current allegations came to light.
The report was published in October 2016 so the investigation obviously predates that.

Admittedly im unfamiliar with the current allegations.

 

[WolfeTone]

Corbyn is a nasty, humourless, marxist bully. He may well also be an anti-semite. He is the reason that Labour will lose and Brexit will happen.

Humourless, marxist, yes. Nasty, bully, im not sure.
You seem to have made a giant step from Boris, Farage , 10yrs of Tory governance following an economic crash and programs of austerity and 17.4m UK voters in declaring Corbyn the reason for Brexit!

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

What makes me think that the majority of Irish opinion is against a Bojo victory? It is quite an irrational stance to take. Bojo has given the Teashop everything he asked for in terms of no border on the island. A comfortable majority for Bojo will put the DUP firmly in their box, will boost sterling, and will lead to a sensible Brino, all favourable to Ireland's interests.
I had a small flutter on Betfair early doors at 2.08 a Conservative majority. Sitting on a 44% Cash Out profit but no way am I going to cash out I have to say Dominic Cummings has played a blinder, okay JC made it easy for him.
Sorry, Wolfie, you are going to have to wait a tad longer for your socialist paradise.