Major fall in BTC price (16th Jan)

[tecate]

Goldman Sachs have due diligence to ensure they’re not dealing with Al Queda or the Cali Cartel

Is that the same 'due diligence' as Rabobank use? The same as what RBS, Barclays & HSBC use?

regulation in the crypto-world is almost non-existent.

With the exception of Japan, regulation has not been fully framed for crypto elsewhere. However, as you will be aware, the intentions are such that this will change shortly.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Bitcoin seems to be turning viable as the market and the big players accept it as a mode of payment. From Canadian KFC to real estate in Dubai, Bitcoin fever appears to be high globally.

tecate I was only challenging this hyperbole in the link from jman. I think you agree with me that this claim is OTT. There was no need for you to adopt faux indignation at me supposedly tarnishing you as criminal.

 

[tecate]

tecate I was only challenging this hyperbole in the link from jman. I think you agree with me that this claim is OTT.

I would say that the media will always over-egg stuff. In this case, it's significant but of minor significance. In the same way, over many weeks in 2018 they have sensationalised some aspects in relation to bitcoin and crypto that presented it in a negative light.

There was no need for you to adopt faux indignation at me supposedly tarnishing you as criminal.

There was every need to point out that people other than criminals use bitcoin (which is essentially what you are suggesting). Furthermore, that many will use it more when circumstances allow. These things don't happen overnight. The banks had been tar and feathering BTC with this nonsense for years. It's outgrown that.

 

[TheBigShort]

Free trade doesn’t matter when it comes to regulated industries like banking and finance. Banks and authorities are free to blacklist and refuse to deal with counterparties. Which makes sense in the case of Cojnbase and assets like Bitcoin. Goldman Sachs have due diligence to ensure they’re not dealing with Al Queda or the Cali Cartel; regulation in the crypto-world is almost non-existent.

If my bank wants to blacklist me or stop transactions between me and Coinbase it has to have some reasonable and evidential basis for doing so.
If they suspect there is illicit activity then fine. But it needs to backed up with some reasonable basis. Otherwise it is open to legal challenges in the courts. Its one of the benefits of being an EU citizen.
If banks were allowed to curtail trade at their own sole discretion then that leaves trade open to all sorts of interference, manipulation, unfair advantage etc.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Is that the same 'due diligence' as Rabobank use? The same as what RBS, Barclays & HSBC use?

With the exception of Japan, regulation has not been fully framed for crypto elsewhere. However, as you will be aware, the intentions are such that this will change shortly.

Specific failures around due diligence are hardly the same as there being no due diligence; surely you must see that? Cryptocurrencies are like the Wild West, and that’s what will be their undoing. I have no doubt that within my lifetime “digital Dollars” might be the norm. But it won’t be Bitcoin.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

If my bank wants to blacklist me or stop transactions between me and Coinbase it has to have some reasonable and evidential basis for doing so.
If they suspect there is illicit activity then fine. But it needs to backed up with some reasonable basis. Otherwise it is open to legal challenges in the courts. Its one of the benefits of being an EU citizen.
If banks were allowed to curtail trade at their own sole discretion then that leaves trade open to all sorts of interference, manipulation, unfair advantage etc.

BigShort, no it doesn’t.

If a counterparty does not have equivalent standards, a bank are free to refuse to engage.

There are swathes of jurisdictions that are deemed “high risk” for example and some banks refuse to transact with them. I had personal experience of that once. Refusing to transact with a small bank in South America is analagous to refusing to transact with an unregulated cryptocurrency repository.

Surely you get that, or are you just hopping the ball?

 

[TheBigShort]

BigShort, no it doesn’t.

If a counterparty does not have equivalent standards, a bank are free to refuse to engage.

Surely you get that, or are you just hopping the ball?

Surely you got the part earlier where I stated that as long as Coinbase are compliant with any regulatory requirements applicable to them then banks have no business and no authority to interfere with my trade with Coinbase?

On what legal basis can a bank block trade between me and Coinbase? This is not China or NK. If there is no reasonable basis to suspect illicit activity then me and Coinbase and everyone else for that matter are free to engage in trade with one another.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Surely you got the part earlier where I stated that as long as Coinbase are compliant with any regulatory requirements applicable to them then banks have no business and no authority to interfere with my trade with Coinbase?

On what legal basis can a bank block trade between me and Coinbase? This is not China or NK. If there is no reasonable basis to suspect illicit activity then me and Coinbase and everyone else for that matter are free to engage in trade with one another.

No Big Short, that’s complete rubbish.

By the logic, banks couldn’t refuse to deal with a fruit merchant once he complied with any regulatory requirements applicable to fruit merchants.

On the basis that crypto is not regulated in the same manner as a bank but stores wealth, banks are free to eschew dealing with them.

 

[tecate]

Specific failures around due diligence are hardly the same as there being no due diligence

I do take your point albeit that the hypocrisy from the banks is breathtaking. The scale of the HSBC Drugs money laundering scandal was unreal. Who was jailed for that?

Cryptocurrencies are like the Wild West, and that’s what will be their undoing.

Of course it's the wild west. They are not even fully formed yet - they're in an embryonic stage of development. Regulation is on the way and we will see how things lie once that is implemented.

I have no doubt that within my lifetime “digital Dollars” might be the norm. But it won’t be Bitcoin.

It will be interesting - lets see how it plays out. As outlined, implementing a centralised digital currency comes with major risk. One hack and it's done for.

If a counterparty does not have equivalent standards, a bank are free to refuse to engage.

So they can do what they want - with your money effectively. This is one of the factors that has driven interest in BTC/Crypto in the first instance. As a case in point, I recently carried out an International Wire Transfer. The receiving bank - turned the transaction around because I had used Transfermate to effect the transfer (in order to get a reasonable fx rate) - and charged me for the privilege, with notification many days later. That didn't even involve cryptocurrency but the motivation behind it remains the same i.e. anti competitive practice.

 

[TheBigShort]

By the logic, banks couldn’t refuse to deal with a fruit merchant once he complied with any regulatory requirements applicable to fruit merchants.

You are absolutely spot on. If im a fruit merchant with a bank account opened through regulatory requirements of the bank and its own terms. Then that bank is required, through its banking license, to facilitate my financial transactions using my money.
As long as there is no reasonable basis to suspect any illicit activity then the bank is obliged to facilitate my financial transactions.
The notion that any bank can, at a whim, restrict financial transactions without any basis for doing so is the stuff of fascism.

 

[jman0war]

There is nothing ''natural" regarding an abstraction such as ''money". Retailers in RoI would accept British notes for convenience, and because they would basically get them at a discount : they would take a British 5 as the equivalent of an Irish 5.

 

[jman0war]

And by the way, I'm not referring to border towns. A friend was head barman of a well known pub in Galway in the 90's and they accepted British notes everyday during Race Week and the Arts Festival in particular.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

And by the way, I'm not referring to border towns. A friend was head barman of a well known pub in Galway in the 90's and they accepted British notes everyday during Race Week and the Arts Festival in particular.

I lived in Belfast pre 1979. The Irish currency with Lady Lavery and coins with various animals moved freely and interchangeably within the community, even on the Shankill Road though now and then you got a coin defaced with the letters UVF.

In 1979 we broke with sterling and for a while the Irish punt was worth more than sterling and the currency still freely moved about. Then the tide turned and sterling became the stronger. I remember being amazed at the irony of being refused an Irish shilling with the little pig on it. I was told they don't accept Free State money any more, ironic as this was deep in republican West Belfast.

 

[noproblem]

I can assure you an awful lot of free state money was making its way northwards at that time with a zero refusal rate. Not all going into the republican areas either.

 

[TheBigShort]

Getting back to bitcoin, up 29% in the week. Four weeks after this topic was started, not the hallmark of a bubble bursting?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I must say that I was taken aback by the reaction to my comments about the Irish language, with some labeling me as worse than Trump in my attitude to minorities.

I was merely pointing out the parallels in that the enthusiasts greatly outnumber those that actually use it as it was intended and also the cult like nature of the following.

For avoidance of doubt I can record that there is at least one big difference between the two. I am anti bitcoin. I have nothing against the Irish language.

 

[TheBigShort]

Getting back to bitcoin, the Arizona senate has passed a bill that proposes to allow tax payments in bitcoin.

Its not a done deal by any means and notwithstanding the clause that instructs any bitcoin to be cashed into $US within 24 hrs, it does give some indication of where the thinking is, in some quarters, on bitcoin.

Notions of 'stepping on' bitcoin, criminalising it, 'crackdown', 90% tax etc, etc are difficult to envisage if there is a significant push to adopt bitcoin.

 

[TheBigShort]

https://www.investopedia.com/news/arizone-votes-accept-tax-payments-bitcoin/

'Weninger indicates that the primary goal behind the bill is to support innovation in the state. The law should send “a signal to everyone in the United States and possibly through the world that Arizona is going to be the place to be for blockchain and digital currency technology in the future,” he told Fox News in an interview.'

Even if it transpires that bitcoin is not the digital currency of the future, it would appear that it is the gateway into this emerging technology. That in itself has value.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Back to that parallel. There is a sizeable constituency who would like to see Irish supplant English as our main language. Similarly there is band who would like to see bitcoin usurp the euro as our main currency. In fact I suggest there is quite a Venn overlap between the two. That to me is fanatical.

I vehemently reject both aspirations. The English language serves us very well as does the euro. Also IMHO the fanatics are bound to be disappointed on both counts.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

There is a sizeable constituency who would like to see Irish supplant English as our main language. Similarly there is band who would like to see bitcoin usurp the euro as our main currency. In fact I suggest there is quite a Venn overlap between the two.

I actually would like to see Irish supplant English in Ireland, but I don't expect it to happen. And I am totally opposed to the waste of money on translating everything into Irish when Irish is not the main language. I am not opposed to spending money supporting the language.

Are you suggesting that there is a "fanatical" type who would be fanatical about the Irish language, Bitcoin, and other issues?

I don't see any evidence at all that people who love Irish are any more or less likely to be Bitcoin faithful. My gut feeling, based on the few Irish speakers I know, is that people who love Irish tend to be less materialistic and therefore probably don't care about Bitcoin at all.

It would be a very interesting piece of research to interview the Bitcoin fanatics and try to see if there is a typical profile.

Brendan