Central Bank: 800,000 adults don't want a job

TheBigShort said:
But I went on to give examples of good and bad trade union activism.
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I missed it where you pointed out bad trade union activism. Can you point me to it please?

You keep saying that Transdev have a very lucrative contract. How do you know it's very lucrative?
 
Responding to TBS post 39

Ok lets see if we can make any progress.

I think LUAS drivers have huge strike power, you don't. I am happy to say we don't agree and move on from that one.

You ask if its ok for the LUAS employer to renege on what it agreed to pay. I certainly think that people should keep to their agreements, however I have no idea if that is a fair characterisation of the LUAS dispute. And for myself I don't really feel the need to know. I don't think it contributes anything to the discussion either way.

On the question of fast food workers, I think that they have very little strike power, that they are unable to exert much pressure on wages, I blame this at least partly on TUs being uninterested in organising them. This seems to me central to the discussion and I am not really clear on your idea here.

Now i really must get some work done, or i will be the one feeling some pressure, but i look forward to coming back to this later.
 
Purple said:
Really? High wages lead to high costs.
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Yes, so what? That is not what my comment inferred. What is good for working people here, is generally good for the economy as a whole.
Food supplies, affordable rents and housing, clean water, jobs, etc etc. I said nothing about high wages.
 
cremeegg said:
I certainly think that people should keep to their agreements, however I have no idea if that is a fair characterisation of the LUAS dispute. And for myself I don't really feel the need to know. I don't think it contributes anything to the discussion either way.
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Seriously? You have some neck to label them grossly overpaid then. Find out the facts for yourself, otherwise your comments are lazy and ignorant to say the least.
All this spouting on this site about free markets, and market value etc is all empty rhetoric. Why not argue that Transdev simply did a bad deal and consumers are paying the price in higher LUAS fares?

cremeegg said:
On the question of fast food workers, I think that they have very little strike power, that they are unable to exert much pressure on wages, I blame this at least partly on TUs being uninterested in organising them. This seems to me central to the discussion and I am not really clear on your idea here.
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They have little strike power in Ireland, yes in part to incompetence on part of trade unions here, partly because the term trade unionism is a dirty term in some powerful and influential quarters.
 
TheBigShort said:
Never said that and don't agree with it. The more wealth transferred from other economies to this economy the better, in general.
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Yet when the same occurs in the opposite direction it's wealth leaving the country and lowering standards :confused:
 
TheBigShort said:
Yes, so what? That is not what my comment inferred. What is good for working people here, is generally good for the economy as a whole.
Food supplies, affordable rents and housing, clean water, jobs, etc etc. I said nothing about high wages.
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Okay, so wage levels that damage the economy are a bad thing. Do you agree?

If businesses and employers should honour their agreements should the same thing also apply to employees and Unions?
 
Leo said:
You can't have it both ways
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:confused::confused::confused::confused:

If I pay €50 in wages and make €50 profit for myself. The wages will typically get spent in this economy. If I'm based in UK, profits will typically get spent there.
If renege on pay deal and only pay €40 I get to spend €60 in UK.
If workers resist this the €50 wages return, to be spent in this economy.
 
TheBigShort said:
:confused::confused::confused::confused:

If I pay €50 in wages and make €50 profit for myself. The wages will typically get spent in this economy. If I'm based in UK, profits will typically get spent there.
If renege on pay deal and only pay €40 I get to spend €60 in UK.
If workers resist this the €50 wages return, to be spent in this economy.
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So they buy only Irish products and services? They don't go on foreign holidays? That money being repatriated to the UK, none of it gets spent on Irish exports? And for balance you want to encourage Irish investors in foreign businesses to ensure the same happens there and they minimise the money they bring back to the Irish economy?

Excessive pay for Luas drivers and the like will only speed up their replacement with automation.
 
Leo said:
So they buy only Irish products and services? They don't go on foreign holidays? That money being repatriated to the UK, none of it gets spent on Irish exports? And for balance you want to encourage Irish investors in foreign businesses to ensure the same happens there and they minimise the money they bring back to the Irish economy?

Excessive pay for Luas drivers and the like will only speed up their replacement with automation.
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Ah c'mon, do I have to go down to the micro level here? Of course it is spent on foreign holidays, foreign goods etc but it is also spent on local goods and services. How much of profits generated here gone abroad returns to ireland compared with wages earned and spent here?
 
TheBigShort said:
Of course. Do you think pizza worker's don't strike?
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Good, so you agree that high wages can damage the economy or, more specifically, wage levels or wage increases which are not tied to an increase in productivity. Is that correct?
You do know that an organisation which pays wage levels in excess of the market rate but is no more productive than the average market rate is not productive, right?
You also know, I presume, that organisations in which their labour is less productive than the market average but pay the average market rates are also not productive?

This all comes down to costs within the economy. If the State sends more money than it should in one area then there is less money to spend where it is needed in another area. The socialist solution is to take more money from the productive wealth generating sectors of the economy. I'd rather see the waste reduced instead or perpetuating that cycle.

Now, when was the last time you saw a picket on an Irish Pizza restaurant?
 
Purple said:
Good, so you agree that high wages can damage the economy or, more specifically, wage levels or wage increases which are not tied to an increase in productivity. Is that correct?
You do know that an organisation which pays wage levels in excess of the market rate but is no more productive than the average market rate is not productive, right?
You also know, I presume, that organisations in which their labour is less productive than the market average but pay the average market rates are also not productive?

This all comes down to costs within the economy. If the State sends more money than it should in one area then there is less money to spend where it is needed in another area. The socialist solution is to take more money from the productive wealth generating sectors of the economy. I'd rather see the waste reduced instead or perpetuating that cycle.
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What has any of this got to do with Transdev paying its drivers what was agreed?


Purple said:
Now, when was the last time you saw a picket on an Irish Pizza restaurant?
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Oh, it's Irish pizza worker's that don't strike...silly me. There I was thinking you attuned to the globalised economy. Amazing how you can revert locally when it suits. But to answer your question (you might answer mine then?)
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/porn-row-pizza-workers-strike-28496689.html

Do pizza worker's not go on strike?
 
TheBigShort said:
What has any of this got to do with Transdev paying its drivers what was agreed?
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Does that mean you won't answer the questions?

TheBigShort said:
Oh, it's Irish pizza worker's that don't strike...silly me. There I was thinking you attuned to the globalised economy. Amazing how you can revert locally when it suits. But to answer your question (you might answer mine then?)
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/porn-row-pizza-workers-strike-28496689.html

Do pizza worker's not go on strike?
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I can't open your link but it looks like it's from the UK. When was the last time you saw a picket at an Irish Pizza restaurant?

People in the small businesses in the open economy are less likely to join a Union because they know that the Union will agitate for low productivity and restrictive work practices and ultimately cost them their jobs.
 
I starting to find all this talk of unions a little bit antiquated to be honest and pretty soon (as mentioned) it will be consigned to the public sector and "old world" organisations. The largest accommodation company (Airbnb) doesn't own any hotels, the largest taxi company (Uber) doesn't own any cabs. Everything that can be is being moved online with 3rd party companies employing more and more agency staff in locations around the world. Last week my daughter asked me for the next Harry Potter book in the series that she is reading. Within seconds my order was placed with Amazon....this will no doubt rely on a whole chain of part-time agency staff to fulfill from the people (or robots) that pack the book to the lorry drivers that make the delivery. There may be an incentive for the lorry drivers to form a union however as they are probably hired via an agency, Amazon could just as easily hire another agency. A friend has launched an online business last year and is poised to break through the 1m mark in revenue before the end of the year. He has not earned a single euro in Ireland and employs free lance developers in Poland & Asia and has someone for sales based in the US..all on contract.

The point being, more & more tasks are being out-sourced and automated. Productivity and price will determine where the jobs will be located. Unfortunately, less and less people will be required with the advent of the internet, AI, robotics and automation. Rather than getting caught up in 20th century thinking we should be planning for the next 50 years...
 
Purple said:
Does that mean you won't answer the questions?
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I will, after you have answered mine. This relates to the strike at the Green Isle plant in Kildare, where the workers make pizzas.

http://m.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/deal-sees-workers-end-hunger-strike-26637593.html

Do pizza worker's not go on strike?


Purple said:
I can't open your link but it looks like it's from the UK. When was the last time you saw a picket at an Irish Pizza restaurant?
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Ireland actually. See above.

Purple said:
People in the small businesses in the open economy are less likely to join a Union because they know that the Union will agitate for low productivity and restrictive work practices and ultimately cost them their jobs.
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Some people clearly think that way. Others would disagree. I would be one of them.
 
Firefly said:
The point being, more & more tasks are being out-sourced and automated. Productivity and price will determine where the jobs will be located. Unfortunately, less and less people will be required with the advent of the internet, AI, robotics and automation. Rather than getting caught up in 20th century thinking we should be planning for the next 50 years...
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You make some reasonable points. But the one point that is missing, in my opinion, is if the robot technology age is upon us, then there will be mass displacement of employment. If there is mass unemployment, who is going to buy the goods and services that the robots make?
On the other hand, if robots takeover, then presumably they won't need a wage? Labour can be removed as a factor of production as nearly everything will be free?
But if everything is free, who decides who gets to live in a mansion with a flash car and who does not? Or can we all expect to live rich style lifestyles? Why not, if robots do everything for us?
 
TheBigShort said:
You make some reasonable points. But the one point that is missing, in my opinion, is if the robot technology age is upon us, then there will be mass displacement of employment. If there is mass unemployment, who is going to buy the goods and services that the robots make?
On the other hand, if robots takeover, then presumably they won't need a wage? Labour can be removed as a factor of production as nearly everything will be free?
But if everything is free, who decides who gets to live in a mansion with a flash car and who does not? Or can we all expect to live rich style lifestyles? Why not, if robots do everything for us?
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And good questions and points from you :) I don't honestly know, but goods seem to get cheaper and cheaper and delivered faster and faster. I don't know where it will all end. I bought garden hedging from Amazon a few months ago - came all perfectly wrapped for a fraction of the price.

The optimist in me says there will be interesting work in other areas, however the pessimist in me says there will be mass unemployment. One thing's for certain though, for a lot of people, being protected by a union could well be a lot further from their minds than a day's work...

Anyways, it's the weekend and I have a BBQ to get to!
 
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