You should instruct your lender to deal with you only in writing.

N

newtothis

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In most situations, I'd probably agree with you, but I think you're both making an assumption that dealing with banks on this issue can be treated like any other business situation. I can assure you from personal experience, they do not do this, and the many stories I've seen on this site simply confirm this view for me. I've tried over several years to engage in a normal way (i.e. party A makes a proposal, party B says they're OK with A, B and C, but can D be changed to E? party A says no, but we can do F or whatever). They simply don't work like this. My experience is that if I ring them, I will not get to speak with anyone who can do anything other than say someone will ring back. They will not commit to ringing at a particular time: only to within a couple of hours. If they ring, they immediately have the advantage: they have all the information you have in front of them. Even if you do, it is very difficult in real-time to counter some of the nonsense they come up with, including statements that are simply untrue: even if you know them to be untrue it is difficult to press the point home if you've nothing to back it up in front of you. You will never in any case get to deal with anyone who can actually make a counter-proposal or make a decision.

Brendan Burgess said:
It's easier to deal with people on the phone when you can get them. It's easier the bank to be tough by letter than to phone a person and be tough.
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I can assure you, this is not the case: they are quite happy to issue threats over the phone that would never be committed to paper. I was genuinely shocked at some of the statements that were made to me over the phone; I've 20+ years business experience, and have never heard anything similar in my professional life. I found it quite intimidating, especially as it's the roof over my head that's at stake, so I can only imagine what it's like for someone without business or negotiating experience. In the end I said I'd only accept phone calls if it was to request or give routine information (in an effort to speed things up): anything beyond that would have to be put in writing and I've cut conversations short since then.

Why they behave like this is another matter. I suspect that due to the numbers involved, they try and put you in a particular box and once you're in that box anyone you speak to is working off a script for people in that box. That's a charitable explanation: shear incompetence is another that on more than one occasion has seemed a more reasonable one to me. On a few occasions, deliberate lying to cover previous errors seems to be par for the course.

I stand over my recommendation to engage in writing for anything significant, and to keep records of all contacts.
 
First of all, dealing with banks or any other institution in Ireland can be very frustrating. Yes, it's more frustrating if it's your family home.
Dealing with call centres is very frustrating. It's impossible to get and retain good staff in Ireland. I suspect that considerate, caring and professional people probably don't want to work in a call centre dealing with mortgage arrears.

Against that, most mortgages in arrears do get rescheduled.

newtothis - I am not sure if you are referring to your experience only or if you have dealt with many people in arrears? I have seen many examples like yours. But I have also seen many examples where the banks handled things well.

I think you are making things difficult for yourself by insisting on keeping everything in writing. It's a ploy used by people who don't want to engage. I am sure that is not your reason for doing so, but the lender would think that and probably respond accordingly.

But if you do face court, the Registrar would be impressed with a good file of paperwork. That is why I suggest keeping in touch over the phone but following up every phone call with an email.

Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
newtothis - I am not sure if you are referring to your experience only or if you have dealt with many people in arrears? I have seen many examples like yours. But I have also seen many examples where the banks handled things well.
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Just my own direct experience over the past four years or so. I've seen numerous postings on this site where my reaction is "I know exactly what you mean", which is what leads me to believe my experience is not unique.

My reason for asking to deal with anything substantive in writing is because I don't trust them - with good reason. I don't think it slows things up: it's an achievement to get them to respond to anything. It's quite laughable actually: plenty of warnings about what happens if a customer doesn't engage in the CB code of conduct, but nothing on what to do if the bank won't engage. All communication on my side has been prepared with the view that some day (hopefully never) a third party will have to review it and form an opinion on who's being reasonable and doing their best to engage and who isn't. Even if you write with a summary of a phone call, it won't be acknowledged and may conveniently be "lost" in the future.

As I said, unless you've experienced it directly, it's hard to believe the way they (in my case Danske, now Pepper by the way) operate. I do take phone calls from them, but have made it clear if it's anything other than routine, they need to put it in writing. I had been dealing with them on the phone as well as by letter, but after a conversation that contained references to non-existent communications and what could only be considered as threats I said enough was enough.
 
The key point on which we are all agreed is that you should have a good written record to show to a judge or registrar if it comes to that.

Brendan
 
HI Brendan, Newtothis,

communications from financial institutions can be one-sided - nothing new here its been happening to me for a long period of time.

(1) this call can be recorded for training etc,
(2) they dont send or have the ability to respond by email
(3) why dont they send letters to confirm the details of the phone call - as customers may not have much recollection of what was discussed. I would have thought given the nature of calls in relation to peoples mortgages that this should be adopted ?
(4) can the customer record the calls on their smartphones or otherwise and if so is this acceptable ? (A quick search says that this feature is disabled on certain phones but can be enabled)
(5) different people from the same FI calling and confusion arises over what was discussed with a previous caller - yes it happens.
(6) the automated signature on letters are impossible to read, its a scrawl - so who is actually sending these letters ?

How can we keep a proper paper trail given the above points ? Yes we can email a Complaints address afterwards if necessary. I dont believe insisting on getting things in writing is making life difficult ( I didn't switch tv companies until I got what I was happy with, in writing first).

A search on the CCMA document is revealing - not once did the word "email" come up ! So there is no onus on the Financial institution to send emails or entertain emails, just communicate by phone only ? An Irish Times article from July 2015 said that the Central Bank identified several areas of weaknesses, including transparency of borrower communications.

Its not impossible to get & retain good staff. I don't buy that. Again, we are dealing with the most expensive purchase we'll ever make and its frightening to know that staff/companies don't seem up to it.

And I take your point Brendan that banks handle situations well. It just seems to be a lottery depends on who makes the call from your mortgage provider.

I much prefer to deal with the local branch than Head Office.
 
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