Wrong sill heights in new build.

J

Joanna

Registered User
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33
Hello,
I am in middle of a new build and only now, to my frustration and regret, learning all about building after the mistakes have been made. I assumed the builder would have put in sill heights according to the plan but I happened to do a check (this is after all windows gone in) after I happened to notice another issue with the house, on the window measurements, and realised the a lot of the windows are 2/3 inches higher than they should be and some are 4/5 inches higher. I love lots of light and the views so even to lose an inch is huge for me...I have approached the builder and while he is willing to take out two front windows of wrong measurements and knock out front wall and replace windows correctly, he is not going to go around all the house and take out all the windows of wrong measurements if I am only talking about a few inches. Has anyone any advice? Am I being being ridiculous in being upset about my non-perfect sill heights and that it's true that I will forget about this once house all furnished? Would the measurement have to be 4/5 inches off before a builder would considerr it a mistake and take the whole window out and knock out the wall? Any advice on this would be really helpful. Thanks very much :)
 
I hate to worry you, but if he can't read window heights off plans, what else is wrong?

I suggest you tell him he builds the house to plan or packs up and gets off site and you'll send him a bill for a full architectural survey of works completed to date and all remedial works necessary.

Who is project managing for you?
 
Thanks mathepac :(. I don't have anyone supervising the build. I was trying my best to keep an eye on things but it never even crossed my mind to check the window measurements.The cost of getting someone to supervise was way over my budget. I did ask my engineer at the outset but he doesn't do supervisory work only sporadic checks on the house for mortgage purposes. He said it is the builder's responsibility to make sure all measurements are correct. I was so green, building wise, at the beginning of all this and no-one tells you the things to keep an eye out for. I can see now why they say it takes three houses before you get it right. I just presumed the builder would be keeping an eye on things and I was off researching for tiles, kitchens, etc. plus there was a rush to get the house up to roof level before planning expired so it was an extremely stressful time. It's only now, that I have requested work on the house to halt till I sort this out, that the problems are becoming more obvious to my now more trained eye. :)
 
Joanna,
Sounds like an unfortunate mess! Have the windows been fitted or are you still in a position to adjust the cill heights?
If the windows are fitted you will end up having to replace the windows if you change the cill heights (presuming the head heights are correct). I would suggest, like mathepac, engaging an architect, engineer or surveyor to examine the build so far and report their findings to you.
If your builder has been negligent in measuring the window heights you should have the place checked for compliance with the building regulations.
 
Joanna said:
Thanks mathepac :(. I don't have anyone supervising the build. I was trying my best to keep an eye on things but it never even crossed my mind to check the window measurements.The cost of getting someone to supervise was way over my budget. I did ask my engineer at the outset but he doesn't do supervisory work only sporadic checks on the house for mortgage purposes. He said it is the builder's responsibility to make sure all measurements are correct. I was so green, building wise, at the beginning of all this and no-one tells you the things to keep an eye out for. I can see now why they say it takes three houses before you get it right. I just presumed the builder would be keeping an eye on things and I was off researching for tiles, kitchens, etc. plus there was a rush to get the house up to roof level before planning expired so it was an extremely stressful time. It's only now, that I have requested work on the house to halt till I sort this out, that the problems are becoming more obvious to my now more trained eye. :)
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sorry joanna but...

from my reading theres no contract, no project management and no supervision. Theres a reason these exist.
In the absence of a project manager, you the cleint automatically takes on this role. if this is something you did not notice then its down to you to resolve it.
you enegineer is the one whole will be certifying compliance with building regs.. . if the work doesnt comply then its down to teh trademan to ensure it complies.
 
Dear o dreary. Poor advice all round. There’s theory and there’s practice. The above advice is all theory.

1st off there’s a reason why people don't hire project managers. Its because they cost a lot and still miss obvious stuff. I’ve seen it happen with dedicated PM’s and architects.

Trouble with a build is you personally have to assume everyone - the builder, the sub contractors, the specialists and the professionals such as engineers and architects all make easy mistakes.
No one will manage it better than you. You can hire these people but you will still end up doing it yourself.

1. There is no 'building regulations' body in the 26 counties. No building control - nada.
2. Certifying engineers stand at the site for 5 minutes. They do not measure. thats why they charge a grand for 6 inspections.
3. There is not such thing as an enforceable penalty for mistakes or delays so forget contracts verbal or written.
4. If the windows are so small as to be affected by 5 inches then talk to your builder – that’s all you can do.
5. 5 inches off a reasonable size window is not a material change and has no effect on certification.
6. The builder can say anything was agreed. You can say anything you like in return. No of it is enforceable. .
7. If the builder walks you will probably be worse off.
8. There is no such thing as a fixed priced contract - just the starting price.
9. If you force the builder to fix all the windows then you will pay for it whether you realise it or not.
10. No window company, no door company, no breton slab company, and so on, will manufacture without first measuring the completed opening. They all assume variation from the plans.

As regards what is reasonable and what is not. Who did your plans - an architect without much experience ..? Heres the way openings work:
At the plan drawing stage all measurements take in to account block sizes and dimensions will be drawn so that blocks wont have to be halved and cills cut.
Any experienced autocad user will know this and should have advise you accordingly

It is designed to save you money that way and its common practice. The builder will assume he has this leeway unless you emphasise something to the contrary to him – and even then he will say you didn’t.

Surely 3 - 5 inches only matters in terms of light if your windows are slits.
The light coming through the window will depend on direction the window is facing. South = sunlight and north = day light.

The bottom line is you personally must measure everything and assume mistakes are made. Even the best builder will make them. When they happen you need to decide the consequences and whether its worth you paying for their mistakes - thats what it boils down to.

I’ve been involved in several self builds if you need more advice.
 
sfag said:
1. There is no 'building regulations' body in the 26 counties. No building control - nada.
2. Certifying engineers stand at the site for 5 minutes. They do not measure. thats why they charge a grand for 6 inspections.
3. There is not such thing as an enforceable penalty for mistakes or delays so forget contracts verbal or written.
4. If the windows are so small as to be affected by 5 inches then talk to your builder – that’s all you can do.
5. 5 inches off a reasonable size window is not a material change and has no effect on certification.
6. The builder can say anything was agreed. You can say anything you like in return. No of it is enforceable. .
7. If the builder walks you will probably be worse off.
8. There is no such thing as a fixed priced contract - just the starting price.
9. If you force the builder to fix all the windows then you will pay for it whether you realise it or not.
10. No window company, no door company, no breton slab company, and so on, will manufacture without first measuring the completed opening. They all assume variation from the plans.
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absolute rubbish from sfag again.... you must have been burnt badly my good man.. but do not try and tar a whole profession because of teh bad experience you have had.

i will deal with the issues you raise:

1. Building control does exist, however its highly unlikely they will get involved with your build as they only view between 12-15% of projects where commencement notices are submitted. Commencement notices being sent in for domestic projects are frequently omitted.

2. Rubbish!!. In order to certify measurements are a huge part of it. Fire regulations alone have many specific measurements that need to be adhered to. Window opening sizes, door widths, roof plane, roof timber sizes, stair widths, balustrade heights, ceiling heights, site dimensions etc all are necessary to be measured in order to certify compliance. If sfags certifier didnt do this then he didnt hire a competent professional, his loss...

3. Rubbish!! Payment is withheld pending the out come of disputes. this is done as part of a contract and by the contract administrator, usually the architect. This clearly and firmly focuses the builder / tradesman to resolve the issue. No contract, no requirement for dispute resolution, thus problems such as the OPs. again sfag is completely and utterly incorrect.

4. Rubbish!!. If you wanted a certian size windows (as long as they meet regulations) and (NB) these were sized on the drawings, then the builder should have built what was specified and not 'sure its what i always do'....

5. Absolute and total rubbish!!! 5 inches (125mm) can easily mean the difference between compliance and non-complaince. Sfag clearly does not knowwhat he is talking about.

6. Thus the reason for a contract and a proper specification. Sfag is only reinforceing my point here.

7. Correct in this situation. But the project should be set up (with A CONTRACT!!!) so that if he walks there are immediate remedial conditions. again, sfag simply reinforces my point.

8. There certainly are fixed priced contracts!!! But these contracts need a whole construction set of drawings, full construction specification and full bill of quantities in order to work correctly. Fixed price contracts are perfect when everything is covered, if not, they are a nightmare for the client as the builder is free to pile on extras not covered in theterms of teh contract. Building houses in ireland is done on an incrediblt ad hoc manner, which is madness because it is usually the single most expensive undertaking we do.... there is no excuse for bad organisation!

9. Again another reinforcement to have a proper specification and contract in place!!

10. correct in most cases.... but that doesnt deal with the OPs problem at all.



if you dont pay for a service, dont expect it to happen....
 
Well put sydthe beat...

For fire regs the window openings heights must be not lower than 800mm off the finished floor and not more than 1100mm off the finished floor.

Anywhere there is glazing in a window below 800mm off the finished floor it must have toughened safety glazing.
 
hi op iam totally skocked at the post by sfag, been involved in the building trade for over 30 years and i have never heard such rubbish in my life, if you have any sense totally disregard same. I know sydthebeat and you have received free professional advice.
 
Hear, Hear Syd.
There is a reason why engineers and architect are engaged in construction. project management is not a role that is easy to replicate. In many cases TV has romanticised the concept of managing a selfbuild. You rarely see the downside and it is very difficult to stay on top of all the requirements of a compliant building especially if your builder is taking advantage and is capable of pulling the wool.

He inevitably quoted off the drawings, get him to follow them too.
 
He inevitably quoted off the drawings, get him to follow them too.


thats "about" the "size" of it???????
 
Hello everyone,

I haven't had a chance to check this website since I wrote my last email due to being up the walls with this house build. But I am sooo grateful for ALL of your replies and so kind of ye all to take the time to reply. Yes, I fear that too - what else is wrong besides wrong sill heights.

Oh, I am kicking myself big time but I am totally totally new to this building process and am finding it extremely overwhelming. I did get an architect to do the house plans; wanting to be sure I got things right but went to my own engineer to do up the constrcution drawings and I think that is where the problem occured. I did ask the architect for a costing to oversee the project but I nearly fell off the chair with the cost of it and there was absolute no way I could afford it. Even their engineer was much more expensive.

I have contacted the architect since but they said that as I didn't go with them for the construction drawings, they now cannot stand over anything wrong in the house. If only I had this knowledge now, I realise that the construction drawings are SOO important and if I had thought of it, I should have asked the architect if I could just pay to get the construction drawings done but it is impossible to have hindsight before the event.

Yes, my current engineer has said that he doesn't go around checking window heights, just looks at building structurally wise and signs off for mortgage. Certainly windows at front of house will have to come out and builder has agreed to this (roof on and windows all in as one person asked and first fix done but not plastered inside house yet - I put a stop to everything once I realised there was something amiss) and I am going to suggest putting in a higher floor downstairs so that it will bring up the floor and bring the windows, therefore, down lower rather than having to take them out. Floor was to have been 6 inches so I may bring it up two inches but will need to ask what knock on effect this will have.

Re upstairs, yes, one very large window south facing is 5 inches short so I am losing that great heat, light and view and I know 5 inches might not be much to others but to me, this is my home to be and my one chance to get things right.

There are also other issues with dormer veluxes that I am trying to rectify and have asked a velux rep to call out next week - will try and get all my alterations list ready for builder and have all the knowledge gathered that I can before approaching him again.

And yes, I am told, that even if I had an engineer supervising the build, that it still may mean mistakes happen.

Helppppppppppp! THANKS for all your kind and helpful advice and taking the time to reply. I must keep positive and believe my home will eventually take shape and turn out right. Right?!!!! :)
 
joanna, i wouldnt get too worked up... we now live in an age of 'customer power'... you pay the piper so you call the tune.

1. your engineer doesnt seem to be giving you much help. It doesnt bode well if he says he doesnt hav eto go around checking cill heights!!! he shoud be explaining to you what cill heights are needed to comply with building reg. Ground floor windows can go as low as they like (subject to teh height of teh outside path), but there are strict rules about first floor cill heights. Explain to your engineer that you are not very happy with his service, and that you have friends planning on building soon....... professionals rely on thei rreputation for work so that should take him down a peg or two, and go out of his way to help you... he was the one who did th econstruction drawings so he should at a minimum make sure tey are being built as he has designed. an of course his design should comply to regulations...

2. your builder / blocklayer.... if the cill heights as proposed comply with regs, then withhold payment until you get what is on the plans.. .simple as... let your engineer (whom youve paid to design teh construction) and your builder (who you hired to build what was designed) fight it out... you simply say to your engineer that you are not willing to release more money until this i sdone... STAY STRONG ON THIS!!
 
Dimensions on drawings sometimes do not marry up with modular block coursing dimensions. An experienced architect will always ensure cill levels are based upon block coursing heights (where possible). The builder probably simply followed standard construction procedure and followed the nearest block course height. This is technically incorrect, but correct from a quality point of view. I can probably guarantee you that in other instances of the build, the tradesmen followed good building practice rather than an architects detail, which sometimes can be incorrect. Architects are not without fault - their drawings cannot be taken as gospel.
Give your builder a break and let common sense prevail. Two or three inches should not affect your enjoyment of your building at all.

Or is this issue simply an excuse not to pay the builder for work completed.

Lifes too short to be fighting over non issues.
 
Thank you both very much for your replies and no, it's not at all to do with not wanting to pay for work, I have paid the builder completely up to date for all work done - again, in hindsight and as per my engineer, I should have withheld some payment as 'retention' or some such name. I'm learning daily in this building game. Thanks again for your helpful advice. Have taken it on board. Really appreciate it. :)
 
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