Wreckless driving...
- Thread starter Gabriel
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podgerodge
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Lads (and ladies!)
The original point is being lost here by those disagreeing with Gabriel. Nobody, nobody at all, is disputing the fact that men by reckless driving cause accidents which cost large sums of money for the insurers and that women are less likely to do so. Hence the cheaper insurance for women and the "women are better drivers" myth. "Women are safer drivers" would be more factually correct.
We are talking about non 'important' issues here - the things that mainly women do that infuriate other drivers but which do not end up (in the main part) in huge insurance claims.
It is fair to state that women (nearly ALWAYS women without exception) cross the road to avoid bikes, slow down for no particular reason or move within a broad range of speeds on the same road depending on what is going on in their head, take roundabouts starting in one lane and ending in another etc etc.
Any woman that looks clearly at the issue without letting hormones getting involved (hehe that'll get a reaction!) would, and has agreed with this opinion.
Including my wife albeit reluctantly!
The original point is being lost here by those disagreeing with Gabriel. Nobody, nobody at all, is disputing the fact that men by reckless driving cause accidents which cost large sums of money for the insurers and that women are less likely to do so. Hence the cheaper insurance for women and the "women are better drivers" myth. "Women are safer drivers" would be more factually correct.
We are talking about non 'important' issues here - the things that mainly women do that infuriate other drivers but which do not end up (in the main part) in huge insurance claims.
It is fair to state that women (nearly ALWAYS women without exception) cross the road to avoid bikes, slow down for no particular reason or move within a broad range of speeds on the same road depending on what is going on in their head, take roundabouts starting in one lane and ending in another etc etc.
Any woman that looks clearly at the issue without letting hormones getting involved (hehe that'll get a reaction!) would, and has agreed with this opinion.
Including my wife albeit reluctantly!
I'd have to agree with Vanilla that statistically young male drivers are more likely to be involved in fatal accidents. Many young male drivers are idiots behind the wheel and often drive beyond their capabilities, I think male drivers improve drastically once the grow up/wise up a bit. I'd also have to agree with Gabriel that many women drivers are not particularly aware of what's going on around them on the roads and many are clueless. Scientifically the female brain is not as geared for 3D spatialization as the male brain that might lend some support to Gabriel's rant. Maybe do this test http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/index_cookie.shtml it's not very good but at the start and the end there are spatialization tests, I got 20/20 in test one and 12/12 in test six but then I'm male so maybe I had an unfair advantage 
MissRibena
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Am I alone in finding it incredible that some men continue to think like this and worse still, think it's ok, and even amusing to voice this kind of bunkum? I was originally doing my best to not read this thread but it's irresistable in its ridiculousness.
Rebecca
Rebecca
I too find it ridiculous! If you believe that woman drivers are worse than men then you will remenmber every incident on the road which involved a woman but equally ignore all those incidents that involved men. I think there are inexperienced,careless or reckless drivers of both sexes but statistics would prove that most fatal crashes are caused by men.
This is not to say that all men are dangerous drivers but there are a higher percentage of that catagory than there are in women.
Equally you could say that younger drivers may be less experienced than older drivers...
Those just after passing their test are less experienced..
Those after a few drinks are less spatially aware ...
Those with more powerful cars tend to speed more...
We can all make loads of generalisations but cannot prove a sweeping statement that women are worse drivers than men based on one of two of our memorable experences and expect everyone else to have had the same experences and agree.
This is not to say that all men are dangerous drivers but there are a higher percentage of that catagory than there are in women.
Equally you could say that younger drivers may be less experienced than older drivers...
Those just after passing their test are less experienced..
Those after a few drinks are less spatially aware ...
Those with more powerful cars tend to speed more...
We can all make loads of generalisations but cannot prove a sweeping statement that women are worse drivers than men based on one of two of our memorable experences and expect everyone else to have had the same experences and agree.
MissRibena said:
I thought about all of this a little last night...
Bamhan...I hope you don't mind me continuously using you as an example...it's just that I happened to agree with you...
Bamhan said:
So...here's what I find ridiculous Miss Ribena...no one has yet pointed out the (possible?) chauvanistic overtones implied in Bamhan's post. It's always men who drive two inches away from your bumper. What does she base this theory on I wonder? Is there any statistical data to back this up? Any facts on the subject? No.
Yet...no one raised an eyebrow to it when it was said!!! Funny that!
Why is this I wonder? Is it because she was right...an observation that happens to correspond with fact? Was she saying that all men drive two inches from her back bumper? No...she wasn't...we still know she was right though don't we?
How many women have you seen tailing you recently?!!!!
Double standards? Yes...absolutely.
Y'see what I always find amusing about these types of discussions is that if I had said exactly the same thing but used men as an example instead of women (in relation to aspects of driving like spatial awareness etc) no one would have raised an eyebrow. Yes, certainly people might have pointed out that they disagree with me...but certainly I wouldn't be getting these types of protests would I?
As I said before...it's easy to stand there and look indignant and imply that the types of men who make these claims are in some way caveman like or already prejudiced beforehand in this regard. That fits in nicely with your view of the world (and men for that matter).
If I posted on the subject that it's mainly young men I see getting into fights after closing time and that I'd based this on anecdotael evidence over the past ten years would you be up in arms saying that surely this just wasn't true?
No...you wouldn't. Why?...because it's reasonable...because the media has been telling us this for years...and because you already know men are more predetermind to be violent with alcohol on them. It fits stereotypes yet it also makes sense...and you know it.
Is it reasonable for me to think or say that I believe 'some' women are poor drivers who have poor road skills and even worse road awareness? Well...frankly yes it is. How do you know if I'm prejudiced towards women in this regard or not? You don't.
podgerodge
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Will the people that continually post about fatal crashes maybe set up a new thread. Thats simply not what this thread is about. This thread is not chauvinistic. It is not picking on women. It is not ridiculous. It is simply some observations - many of which have been experienced by men AND women on this thread on a regular basis.
God, if I had a video camera attached to my dashboard...
God, if I had a video camera attached to my dashboard...
And if I had a videocamera attached to mine...but we don't.
If we are all talking about our experiences it shouldn't surprise you that people will have had different experiences on the road than you and therefore have different views.
I don't think that women are worse drivers than men and just because one female poster may agree with you doesn't prove your argument. I find a lot of incidences on the road where old drivers may cause a nuisance by driving slowly but I allow for that as their reactions may be slower and don't feel the need to drive up their ar** and flash them to move along.
Also I find that younger male drivers in my experience drive too closely to the car in front,overtake on junctions and continuous white lines and speed.
Also some L-plate drivers (both male and female) can make mistakes and their car might conk out on them. I will leave plenty of distance between them and not overtake them recklessly.
As drivers we have to anticipate these things.
You can let someone know they have made a mistake by beeping or flashing them once or reporting them if it causes a near crash but to do more than this IS road rage and serves no purpose other than to make it more likely that another dangerous incident will occur.
If we are all talking about our experiences it shouldn't surprise you that people will have had different experiences on the road than you and therefore have different views.
I don't think that women are worse drivers than men and just because one female poster may agree with you doesn't prove your argument. I find a lot of incidences on the road where old drivers may cause a nuisance by driving slowly but I allow for that as their reactions may be slower and don't feel the need to drive up their ar** and flash them to move along.
Also I find that younger male drivers in my experience drive too closely to the car in front,overtake on junctions and continuous white lines and speed.
Also some L-plate drivers (both male and female) can make mistakes and their car might conk out on them. I will leave plenty of distance between them and not overtake them recklessly.
As drivers we have to anticipate these things.
You can let someone know they have made a mistake by beeping or flashing them once or reporting them if it causes a near crash but to do more than this IS road rage and serves no purpose other than to make it more likely that another dangerous incident will occur.
fobs said:
I've no problem with that point of view fobs...what I do have a problem with is the indignant responses and the "are there really men who still think like this?" type retorts.
fobs said:
Your missing (or avoiding) the point I made altogether though really, aren't you?
I wasn't saying that because one woman agreed with me I was right. I was pointing out the indignant responses to my posts whilst highlighting that no one questioned Bamhan.
fobs said:
Lol...this just gets funnier. You're only proving to me that it's quite reasonable to post your judgements based on your own experiences. I'm a man...should I be highly offended by that remark?
fobs said:
That's easy to say when you're sitting in front of your computer. See how you react if you'd been in my situation yesterday. I've yet to see someone come out of a very near serious accident and not have one of two reactions - anger or shock.
I did recount my experiences but never said "all young male drivers are worse than all young female driver...
I know you were angry but this is definately OTT. What would you have done if she had stopped the car. She was probably too petrifeid of you to aknowledge you as you were acting like a madman! You are not the traffic police!
Again I don't think this reaction was warranted.
I know you were angry but this is definately OTT. What would you have done if she had stopped the car. She was probably too petrifeid of you to aknowledge you as you were acting like a madman! You are not the traffic police!
Again I don't think this reaction was warranted.
Again you're choosing to ignore or avoid the point I was making.
You said...and I quote...
I never said you said "all young male drivers are worse than all young female driver..."
As a matter of fact I never even implied that was what you were saying so I don't really know where you're taking that from??!
I was referring to the fact that it's reasonable for you to say this about male drivers but seemingly unreasonable for me to say something about female drivers. Double standards. You don't even see that though do you?
You've already made your point on my reaction. I happen to disagree with you. She deserved every bit of my anger and a whole lot more too. She nearly killed me and she never even acknowledged it. I only lost it after she drove off without a care in the world after me screeching to a standstill behind her. Maybe if she'd have had some manners I wouldn't have lost my cool.
Frankly though I don't really care that you happen to think I was OTT. That's a mute point for me.
You said...and I quote...
I never said you said "all young male drivers are worse than all young female driver..."
As a matter of fact I never even implied that was what you were saying so I don't really know where you're taking that from??!
I was referring to the fact that it's reasonable for you to say this about male drivers but seemingly unreasonable for me to say something about female drivers. Double standards. You don't even see that though do you?
You've already made your point on my reaction. I happen to disagree with you. She deserved every bit of my anger and a whole lot more too. She nearly killed me and she never even acknowledged it. I only lost it after she drove off without a care in the world after me screeching to a standstill behind her. Maybe if she'd have had some manners I wouldn't have lost my cool.
Frankly though I don't really care that you happen to think I was OTT. That's a mute point for me.
fobs said:
For a third time you're choosing to ignore the point I made. Fair enough.
The point I originally made was not about my reaction to the near accident...it was about the near accident itself.
You've already made your point about my reaction (more than once) and I've already responded to it (more than once).
If you don't want to respond to the relevant points I've made about double standards that's your business.
MissRibena
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Gabriel, you are incorrect on the double standards issue. I believe I don’t have double standards or at the very least do my best not to. That doesn’t mean that I can fight every prejudiced comment ever made. All I can do is challenge those that seem to gain momentum or are blatant and as a woman and a proud feminist I tend to take particular notice of those issues but am not restricted to those and have taken issue here before with other completely different views (and have had mine confronted likewise). If you find Bamhans post objectionable, then you challenge it; I'm not sure why you expect others to make your points for you. If you read back, I've referred to the thread in its entirety as being ridiculous rather than just your particular point and I took issue with the “revengeful” driving of other posters too, which in my opinion was the most ridiculous point since the thread seems to have been started about stupid driving and bad driving etiquette.
With regard to Fobs point about the young drivers, which is not a view I share incidentally, at least there are statistics that might lend weight to it. Your point on the other hand rather than having evidence to back it up has, if anything, plenty of evidence to the contrary. We are all entitled to make our opinions how we like, but I prefer to question my views, have a look at the facts and listen to a reasonable debate before making up my mind or changing it. Your anecdotes have done nothing to convince me you are right in your earlier premise:
With regard to Fobs point about the young drivers, which is not a view I share incidentally, at least there are statistics that might lend weight to it. Your point on the other hand rather than having evidence to back it up has, if anything, plenty of evidence to the contrary. We are all entitled to make our opinions how we like, but I prefer to question my views, have a look at the facts and listen to a reasonable debate before making up my mind or changing it. Your anecdotes have done nothing to convince me you are right in your earlier premise:
Gabriel said:
Gabriel said:
MissRibena said:
Ah...interesting. Y'see you can delve much deeper into this. First of all, let's be clear about something. You were quite adamant that this was a male chauvanist issue. In fact you jumped on the men in this particular instance...
MissRibena said:
I happen to believe that you don't have double standards...or that you believe that at any rate. But it doesn't show through in your words. What does shine through is your feminism (something to be proud of - obviously)...but unfortunately you've automatically equated me making comments about my experiences as chauvanistic. Or at least that was implied.
So...perhaps you'd like to deal with that issue?
What strikes me as true in all of this is that because Gabriel=man and Gabriel disses women drivers Gabriel must be sexist pig!!
That's the vibe I've been getting....not that it bothers me greatly, as I know myself better than most (I'd hope).
My point is you've come at this whole subject from the aspect of if men make derogatory comments about womens capabilities then they're not only wrong but also must be ignorant....and also that you'll happily ignore comments made about men as that doesn't appear to concern you. Personally, I'd question those reactions...and I don't mean that in any off hand manner.
I never came at this issue from a chauvanistic point of view. I'm just giving my honest appraisal of what I see every day.
MissRibena said:
I don't. I thought that was obvious!?
MissRibena said:
Really????? Wasn't fobs point that he find young male drivers "drive too closely to the car in front,overtake on junctions and continuous white lines and speed"? As far as I know there are no statistics on driving too close and overtaking on junctions and continuous white lines. Can you clarify this for me?
Isn't all this about stereotyping, prejudice and perception?
For example, I have a male friend who admits he's a chauvinist and will tell anyone who will listen that women drivers are a scourge on the roads, etc. etc.... His wife tells me that when there's an incident with a male driver, cutting him up or whatever, he waves it off, but if it's an incident with a female driver - he goes absolutely ballistic!
A few months ago he was stopped at a 'T' junction at night with one car in front of him. He couldn't see who the driver was and when the car hadn't moved off where, in his opinion, there were two gaps in the traffic from the right he turned to his wife and said I'll bet that's a ****** woman and beeped his horn!
When 'she' didn't pull out at the next gap in the traffic he beeped his horn two or three times in frustration.
The person in the car in front got out and, lo and behold, it was a man!
Not only was it a man, it was a Guard in an unmarked vehicle who promptly issued him with a ticket for 'illegal use of the horn'!
Yes, I know it's anecdotal, but it was also very, very sweet!
For example, I have a male friend who admits he's a chauvinist and will tell anyone who will listen that women drivers are a scourge on the roads, etc. etc.... His wife tells me that when there's an incident with a male driver, cutting him up or whatever, he waves it off, but if it's an incident with a female driver - he goes absolutely ballistic!
A few months ago he was stopped at a 'T' junction at night with one car in front of him. He couldn't see who the driver was and when the car hadn't moved off where, in his opinion, there were two gaps in the traffic from the right he turned to his wife and said I'll bet that's a ****** woman and beeped his horn!
When 'she' didn't pull out at the next gap in the traffic he beeped his horn two or three times in frustration.
The person in the car in front got out and, lo and behold, it was a man!
Not only was it a man, it was a Guard in an unmarked vehicle who promptly issued him with a ticket for 'illegal use of the horn'!
Yes, I know it's anecdotal, but it was also very, very sweet!
MissRibena
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LOL delgirl!
Gabriel, look over your earlier posts - first you were annoyed at women, taxi drivers and white van men. Later you decided to just restrict your annoyance to women. I never called you chauvinistic or ignorant; but that and your general tone (the sarcasm etc) doesn't exactly mark you out as a feminist or even even-handed. I said the thread is chauvinistic in response to another poster's comments, which I belive it had been up until that point; now it's just gone way off track.
If it was a thread about stupid/unsafe driving or bad driving etiquette, that would be grand. I've plenty of experiences to recount myself but it's not. You are not choosing to rant about that, you prefer to restrict your rant to the women who do it and claiming they form the majority of perpetrators.
I'm not into the slice and re-hash style of quoting but for the record; i thought you were objecting to Bahmans claims about male drivers etc (on which you are basing the double-standard issue) and you will also see that I said the stats about car accidents MIGHT lend weight to an argument about stupid/bad young male drivers. I don't want to bore readers in one of those never-ending threads with two posters going back and forward nitpicking, so if you want to take it up further with me, then PM me and I'll get back to you if I have time.
Rebecca
Gabriel, look over your earlier posts - first you were annoyed at women, taxi drivers and white van men. Later you decided to just restrict your annoyance to women. I never called you chauvinistic or ignorant; but that and your general tone (the sarcasm etc) doesn't exactly mark you out as a feminist or even even-handed. I said the thread is chauvinistic in response to another poster's comments, which I belive it had been up until that point; now it's just gone way off track.
If it was a thread about stupid/unsafe driving or bad driving etiquette, that would be grand. I've plenty of experiences to recount myself but it's not. You are not choosing to rant about that, you prefer to restrict your rant to the women who do it and claiming they form the majority of perpetrators.
I'm not into the slice and re-hash style of quoting but for the record; i thought you were objecting to Bahmans claims about male drivers etc (on which you are basing the double-standard issue) and you will also see that I said the stats about car accidents MIGHT lend weight to an argument about stupid/bad young male drivers. I don't want to bore readers in one of those never-ending threads with two posters going back and forward nitpicking, so if you want to take it up further with me, then PM me and I'll get back to you if I have time.
Rebecca
Vanilla said:
Fair enough...I agree that it's just going around in circles.
However, I also feel that far from being what it was originally intended, it has become a women vs men issue and has shown (quite clearly) the double standards that relate to wider debates on subjects like this and the immediate belief by many posters that if you have a pop at women you're chauvanistic and ignorant.
The rule seems to be simple enough. If you're a man you'd better keep your mouth shut about women drivers...but regardless of whether you're male or female you're welcome to have a pop at male drivers (even if those criticisms don't have data to back them up).
For me it also shows that people don't seem to want to discuss anything without verifiable data to support it....even when the subject matter doesn't lend itself to said statistics. So...in time honoured tradition everyone pats themselves on the back in the knowledge that boy racers force male insurance through the roof..ergo women must be better drivers.
Anyone know the smiley face for rolling your eyes?