With what does Bankrupt AIB plan to pay staff more than statutory redundancy?
- Thread starter Bronte
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Branches are still making operating profits which in turns pays the salaries and the pensions to retired bank officials and widows/widowers of same allegedly. If this bank is almost state owned, then the government will have an input into the redundancy issue.
You would not expect these sacrificial lambs who have taken the brunt of sins committed by senior management to leave empty handed? At worst, they would be entitled to statutory redundancy which is the law. Think of the PRSI etc. which has been paid by these officials over the years.
You would not expect these sacrificial lambs who have taken the brunt of sins committed by senior management to leave empty handed? At worst, they would be entitled to statutory redundancy which is the law. Think of the PRSI etc. which has been paid by these officials over the years.
Have you a citation for branches being profitable? I know their retail division declare an operating profit if you ignore all the losses. There was some profit on the sell off of some branches I believe.
Branches are very expensive and generally rely on product sales rather than transactions to make profits. Given the state of lending, I doubt there is much going on in the way of sales. Will be interested to see how they are making a profit running branches as banks push customers online.
Surely not Delboy, these increases are to reward us all. The bank even said so themselves 
Article in todays paper quoting yesterdays results conference states that AIB have confirmed that they have plans to increase prices on loans to generate returns that will “reward Irish taxpayers for their support of the bank” but promised to do so in a transparent way.
Article in todays paper quoting yesterdays results conference states that AIB have confirmed that they have plans to increase prices on loans to generate returns that will “reward Irish taxpayers for their support of the bank” but promised to do so in a transparent way.
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JoeB
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Our government appears completely imcompetent.
They cannot enforce a cap on salaries, despite owning the banks, and the banks are allowed call a bonus something else, and that's fine. How many times now has that happened?, and the Gov think we're all fools and don't notice.
The banks should have been allowed fail, but yet we're still digging a hole.
Pathetic performance all round,.. it's the fact that politicions can lie and nothing happens that causes the problems. Brian Lenehan should be in jail for corruption, or hanged for economic treason, either would be ok by me.
I don't normally approve of hanging, .. but what Lenehan and Co did is inexecusable in my view. .they deliberately sold our grandchildrens future, possibly to enrich themselves and their cohorts, and they lied about it. Fully deserving of being charged with treason in my view.
They cannot enforce a cap on salaries, despite owning the banks, and the banks are allowed call a bonus something else, and that's fine. How many times now has that happened?, and the Gov think we're all fools and don't notice.
The banks should have been allowed fail, but yet we're still digging a hole.
Pathetic performance all round,.. it's the fact that politicions can lie and nothing happens that causes the problems. Brian Lenehan should be in jail for corruption, or hanged for economic treason, either would be ok by me.
I don't normally approve of hanging, .. but what Lenehan and Co did is inexecusable in my view. .they deliberately sold our grandchildrens future, possibly to enrich themselves and their cohorts, and they lied about it. Fully deserving of being charged with treason in my view.
No problem with statutory redundancy. No problem with more than that But why should a bank that is bankrupt pay staff more than that when the money they will use is taxpayers. I'd prefer them to pay back the exchequer. I think the boss has an inordinate amount of cheek to suggest anything else. And as someone whose taxes is going into that bank I'd like to be consulted first. And of all banks AIB. Nothing ever changes.
I agree fully with this. If a private business goes bust then only statutory redundancy is paid. If the business is unable to pay it comes from the social insurance fund.
Why should a busted bank be any different?
Ireland is really really sick. We can afford to pay Grant Thornton fees of 1.7 million, we can seemingly pay off the AIB's debts so it is effectively state owned and the staff who brought that bank to it's knees are to be paid up to 10 weeks extra leave, but we cut home carer's allowance, prevent people having operations on time, destroy their lives, if in power hire family members, award pay rises in the semi states, threaten strike action at the very mention of a slight change in work practice in well paid jobs in the old national airline, part state owned, we can threaten to cut the extra Sunday pay for the lowest pay workers and it's all tickedy boo.
Ireland is so fundamentally rotton, uncaring and hateful to it's citizens.
Not one person has been charged, never mind brought to court or convicted of any crime. The accountants and lawyers with the nod of the political class are straddled over the carcas of collapsed Irish business eating it's very young, devouring every last morsal with relish, ensuring that they will get richer, dropping intelligent sound bites of how we need cuts while they insulate themselves and legally put the bill on those with nothing and those with nothing who will have even less. We might as well have Gadaffi here, at least he's honest, he's going to kill every man woman and child who opposes him. They're doing that in Ireland, but they don't call it genocide here or rape or pillage. But it surely is the same thing. Just slower. Is there not one person to stop this madness.
Ireland is so fundamentally rotton, uncaring and hateful to it's citizens.
Not one person has been charged, never mind brought to court or convicted of any crime. The accountants and lawyers with the nod of the political class are straddled over the carcas of collapsed Irish business eating it's very young, devouring every last morsal with relish, ensuring that they will get richer, dropping intelligent sound bites of how we need cuts while they insulate themselves and legally put the bill on those with nothing and those with nothing who will have even less. We might as well have Gadaffi here, at least he's honest, he's going to kill every man woman and child who opposes him. They're doing that in Ireland, but they don't call it genocide here or rape or pillage. But it surely is the same thing. Just slower. Is there not one person to stop this madness.
No unionised bank in Ireland has ever had large scale compulsary redundancies. I believe there is a fear of significant industrial action if AIB went down this route or offered a low package which potentially could result in a national bank strike.
Bear in mind as well that a quick cull could be cheaper in the long run that a long drawn out protracted battle between unions and management
However I also don't accept the arguement that "ordinary" bank staff are totally innocent as to what happened. Plenty of them earned commision for sales of products to people that were unsuitable for their long term needs. I know people in one bank for example whose sole interest was getting a commision and damm the paperwork and damm the risk assessment and management and anyone who argued otherwise, got steamrollered.
As for crimes? Let's be honest here, most of us in Ireland were infected by the madness of the Celtic Tiger, plenty of people made profits from selling property and creating nothing. Yes, there are individuals in certain banks who took greed to an extreme and yes, it would be great to see them locked up (and maybe we will) but if you locked up everyone who helped fuel the mess the country is in, the streets would be very very empty
Bear in mind as well that a quick cull could be cheaper in the long run that a long drawn out protracted battle between unions and management
However I also don't accept the arguement that "ordinary" bank staff are totally innocent as to what happened. Plenty of them earned commision for sales of products to people that were unsuitable for their long term needs. I know people in one bank for example whose sole interest was getting a commision and damm the paperwork and damm the risk assessment and management and anyone who argued otherwise, got steamrollered.
As for crimes? Let's be honest here, most of us in Ireland were infected by the madness of the Celtic Tiger, plenty of people made profits from selling property and creating nothing. Yes, there are individuals in certain banks who took greed to an extreme and yes, it would be great to see them locked up (and maybe we will) but if you locked up everyone who helped fuel the mess the country is in, the streets would be very very empty
A master class in the construction of false dichotomies there Bronte.
We still have twice as many nurses as France, the best paid doctors in Europe (and the best paid consultants in the world) and teachers who are amongst the best paid in Europe. We still have the second shortest school year in the EU (after Greece) and a very short working week generally in the public sector in general and in healthcare in particular (junior doctors excluded).
What’s the solution to a lack of resources in the public sector? Easy; everyone works a 39 hour week for no extra money. All of a sudden there’s 10-15% more hours available. Problem solved. If things get worse increase it to 45 hours a week for no extra money and cut numbers by 10-15%. Of course those that are laid off would have to get their statutory redundancy but that would be a one off cost.
Given the above it’s as credible to say that delays in operations are due to the underworked and overpaid medical staff and home carers allowance is being cut due to previous pay increases in the sector that sucked money out of that area. Little Jonnie with special needs has had his supports cut because teachers took the money for themselves in pay rises. In other words I can link cause and effect to anything that suits my bias just as you can and just as any journalist can.
That clown Fintan O’Toole wrote an article in the Irish Times yesterday ([broken link removed]) suggesting that the country was rolling in money and unless we tax the rich more (you know, the 5% who already pay 50% of the income tax) then we are really just baby killers. The man knows about as much about economics as Jedward do about particle physics. We need to stop the hysterical emotive nonsense and accept that reality isn’t always nice and fairness is in the eye of the beholder.
Very good points.
There are a few journalists of Fintan O'Toole's ilk (Shane Ross take a bow) who do not see the irony of themselves. They portray themselves as some sort of intellectuals (and they seem to actually believe they actually are!), when anyone with even a passing understanding of the subject matter they pontificate on could reduce their arguments to dust.
I'd call them cynical populists, but I genuinely believe they don't have the intellect to engage in such self serving populism - somehow their intellectually bankrupt interpretations of reality have converged with popular opinion that demands easy answers where none exist.
If you're looking for easy answers and some egghead with a bow tie and a national platform is peddling them, you can't blame the public for lapping up their drivel - it's out of the sheer desperation of the situation we are in.
Now I know you are on a bit of a rant here, but I think think this part goes a bit to far. Comparing the difficulties that Irish people are encountering to rape and pillage is tabloid trash. Have you ever met refugees from war zones and heard their stories first hand? I met a lot of Bosnian refugees in the 90s, and believe me, even the worst affected Irish families are living in a comparative heaven.
I think that judging O'Toole as a clown is very disingenuous to the clown profession. I have seldom read such utter nonsense filled into one article; I feel nothing but despise for the idiot. It is the typical bovine dung that comes from the socialist idea that financial assets are a public good and not private property. I came a cross a great youtube clip that shows exactly how successful an "eat the rich" policy would be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=661pi6K-8WQ
When the last Irish top 100 rich list was published, I did a quick calculation of the wealth of those that were in the country, and I came up with a figure of about €40bn. That would plug the deficit for 2 years; and then what!?!?!
I'll agree here. People on the breadline in this country with massive debts who are working their ass off to survive may feel absolutely drained by the experience.
At the end of the day though there is still comfort that the state (for now) does provide a minimum standard of living through social welfare, the public health system and free education that 90%+ of the world's population would envy.
It's like the pulp song - "you'll never live like common people, if you called your daddy could stop it all". How many Irish people really believe they'll be left to starve or die from disease (by the EU or Ireland) in the event they lose everything? That is one worry we don't have and makes us infinitely better off than people in 3rd world countries.
I'll have to look up dichotomies
Just take that, more nurses than France and our health system is abysmal. The best paid doctors and nobody can afford to go seem them (except the wealthy and the poor). And 1 in 5 kids leaves school with out the 3 Rs.
Sorry for the ranting guys, but the carers programme left me disgusted.
I'll have to look up dichotomies
Just take that, more nurses than France and our health system is abysmal. The best paid doctors and nobody can afford to go seem them (except the wealthy and the poor). And 1 in 5 kids leaves school with out the 3 Rs.
Sorry for the ranting guys, but the carers programme left me disgusted.
I agree but why is nobody blaming the nurses, teachers and carers? It's their fault, not the government or some vague group of super rich people that may or may not pay enough tax.
That's a straw man argument Purple.
You're batting back points Bronte didn't raise.
Bronte is quite right in what she posted, and while many of the comments you made appear to be as clever and self-supporting as a good sports bra some of them seem to fall apart under investigation.
Let's look at just one.
You are comparing apples and oranges when you're talking about nurses pay here and elsewhere. You have made no comparative study of the health services, pension and social service entitlements here and abroad, which go some way to take money out of people's pockets and into the state's so it can provide services in ill health and in later life. Here we're supposed to look after these through private means and we haven't or cannot, partly through the situation we're in with mortgages and negative equity.
But let's not descend to the Sarkozy level of criticism, where we criticize an isolated point like corporate tax while ignoring other issues that are relevant.
[broken link removed]
There seems to be a lot of sharp practice in Irish business these days so its no surprise that the mere thought of scrutinising high earners under the guise of asking them to pay more tax, or even pay what they owe to people, would send some of them into an apoplectic fit.
However the fact remains that many of these unqualified successes are still serving on the boards of banks and businesses, still undermining the credibility of our lending institutions and companies and still working to line their nests in the middle of a recession instead of paying their dues.
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I have no problem with asking medical staff to work longer hours, but only in the context of everyone being asked to do so, particularly the directors of financial institutions and companies who seem able to rotate around golden circles on the pretext of bringing grey headed wisdom to 12 and more different companies each year but who in fact, through their incompetence and lack of diligent attention to their duties were the authors of our economic deconstruction.
The perception is that such as these are not suffering at all in the present climate, which has the rest of us on interest only mortgages, suspending our pension payments, cancelling our health insurance and struggling to pay back our loans.
This occurs because of a dearth of profitable work, and where there is work, a plethora of clients who walk away from their debts. Ireland today is rife with real-world sharp practice situations and lies, so please don't bother painting the monied élite as anything other than the self-serving money grubbers that they are.
ONQ.
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