Wills and solicitor withholding assets

Clamball said:
How you describe everything is all very confusing so I guess none of us really understand what you are trying to ask. As the executor you should be very clear on the terminology and the status of the assets of the estate, and it seems your solicitor is trying his best but …..

4 beneficiaries were left 14 parcels of land/property.
Residue of estate was left to you.
There was debts of nursing home loan.
Probate granted June 2023.
Nursing home loan was due to be paid Nov 2023 - the estate paid some interest due but not all the loan.
You personally borrowed money to pay CAT which you paid (but you did not own the assets as the estate had not been distributed)
3 of the 4 beneficiaries instructed that their potential legacies be sold by the estate and they would take their portion as cash. (this includes you). The 4th beneficiary is keeping the land/property.
The executor (you) instructed each of the 3 beneficiaries selling to arrange and conduct the sale themselves (this is very odd, usually the executor would do all of this)..
The proceeds of the sales will be gathered by the solicitor assisting you.
As soon as there is sufficient funds the nursing home loan will be paid (this is prudent as interest accrues quickly), and you even paid for a barristers opinion on it!
Once all the cash assets are gathered the other debts are paid, and the cash distributed to the 3 beneficiaries (sale money-fees & charges- some complex calculation of how much each paid of the nursing home loan).
Then you get your money and you can repay your loan that you took to pay the CAT. It is only at this stage that you know what your CAT liability actually is as up to now you had received no money or assets from the estate.

Given how hard it was to understand what you are describing (and I am sure I got somethings wrong) I would think the solicitor will strongly suggest that no monies be paid out until all the assets are gathered. Your understanding of whether you and/or the other beneficiaries owned the assets or were acting as executor of the estate seems very woolly. I really think you should just follow the solicitors advice step by step until he gives you a final cheque and can close the file, and not muddy the whole thing by looking for partial payment of your inheritance early.

Best of luck, it would have been a very hard task getting to probate with all the different assets and beneficiaries desperate for cash but you are close to the end now.
Click to expand...
My point is that once the nursing home loan has been paid from the sale of my portion of the land there are no further bills outstanding. And why should I have to borrow more to pay CGT if that is the case. I feel that once the bills have been paid I should be given funds to pay my own bills around this whole business.I do not think that is too much to ask. No doubt the solicitor will see to himself by taking funds from the account in relation to his own fees for the contracts concerning the sale of the land. Nursing home load was due to be paid in March 2023----a year after the passing of my relative. If the load is repaid within that year no interest accrues. If not, you pay interest for that year and any subsequent time. In other words it is 25 months interest that is now owed.Why should I wait for the other assets to be gathered when they are simply going to the other beneficiaries less their contribution? Plus it could take a long time for all the assets to be sold and funds gathered. It could take years and I am not a young man. I do not mind waiting for the contributions of the other beneficiaries but I need to pay my tax bills when they fall due.And I need to repay my relative. This is a very unusual and complex case and anyone I talk to about it does not understand. I do not know if the solicitor fully understands the complexities or what he needs to do. Certainly the revenue did not understand and did not care to understand.
 
Baffling said:
anyone I talk to about it does not understand
Click to expand...
I'm honestly not surprised.

As regards deceased estates, I don't think its all that complex; there's a valid will, an executor, known beneficiaries etc.

I think your actions have made it more complicated.

If there is sufficent cash in the estate to settle debts & expenses (and that appears to be what you are saying); it would have made more sense (to me) to let the Solicitor settle the bills once you had probate, transfer the properties into the relevant beneficiaries names & wind up the estate

And then ye could all do what you wanted with your inheritance.
 
I find it hard to understand your posts - they are long paragraphs with lots of information intermingled with your comments and feelings
 
DannyBoyD said:
There's a specific order by which debts are paid; I'm sure this list is published somewhere & someone will link to it.

But I'm willing to put money on it that the Fair Deal loan is high up on that list; so its one of the first & not last items to be paid.
Click to expand...
You are right, the Nursing Home loan takes priority in some sense but only when there is enough money available to pay it. As is the case now after sale of land. It does not matter whose land it is. Mine happens to be the first portion of land to be sold. I don't know if there is a specific order by which debts are paid.
DannyBoyD said:
I'm honestly not surprised.

As regards deceased estates, I don't think its all that complex; there's a valid will, an executor, known beneficiaries etc.

I think your actions have made it more complicated.

If there is sufficent cash in the estate to settle debts & expenses (and that appears to be what you are saying); it would have made more sense (to me) to let the Solicitor settle the bills once you had probate, transfer the properties into the relevant beneficiaries names & wind up the estate

And then ye could all do what you wanted with your inheritance.
Click to expand...
The point is there was not sufficient cash in the residue to pay the Nursing Home loan. Land needed to be sold. So the advise from the solicitor was to sell land without vested it in our names.
 
24 posts before we get a clearer picture.

So short answer is, you can't access any funds until the estate is settled.

You can (and should) ask your solicitor to set out in writing what the next steps are and when they expect them to complete.
 
jpd said:
I find it hard to understand your posts - they are long paragraphs with lots of information intermingled with your comments and feelings
Click to expand...

DannyBoyD said:
You misunderstand how the Fair Deal works. There's a charge put on property so they always get their money.
Click to expand...
You misunderstand me. I know they always get their money. What I am saying is that Hse will get their money when there is enough money in the account. Prior to their been a enough money there may be others bills to be paid. For example ,the Probate fee, the estate agents fee for the valuation. I don't misunderstand the how Fair Deal works. I understand it very well as I am required to.
 
DannyBoyD said:
24 posts before we get a clearer picture.

So short answer is, you can't access any funds until the estate is settled.

You can (and should) ask your solicitor to set out in writing what the next steps are and when they expect them to complete.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by settled? So when the CGT becomes due I can tell the revenue that the solicitor won't release any funds and that they have to wait until the will is "settled". Who is going to then pay the interest on a late payment? The Solicitor?I doubt it.
T McGibney said:
There are 2 payment dates annually for CGT. 15 December and 31 January.

There is no payment date in September.
Click to expand...
Yes. You are correct. I got the month's wrong.
 
For clarity, no funds can be distributed by the solicitor until probate is complete and the relevant tax clearance cert has been received from Revenue. That normally takes (in my experience) around 6 weeks from when probate is complete. Not gone through the fair deal loan but my understanding is that Revenue collect it so that may delay it.

I still don't understand how you sold land you didn't own without probate having been completed, regardless of the market value and CGT implications you believe you have.
 
If you read my posts you would see that probate was granted in June 2023. I immediately put my portion of the land on the market. It has now been sold and Nursing Home loan is about to be paid. After loan has been paid there are no further debts. Two other beneficiaries are in the process of selling their land. I need to access some of the remaining funds in the account. Even after that there will be more that enough money in the account to cover solicitor fees .
 
If the land had to be sold by the Executor to pay the deceased debits then it is was never your land. Then you are paying CAT on an assist you never owned? This is what is confusing people.
ie. It does not matter that Joe gives me a field in his will, if Joe dies and owes money to the tax man or fair deal etc they get their cut first. If the field is all there is to be sold, then I get nothing.
Is there confusion between You the Inheriter and You the Executor? They are two different entities for tax purposes.
 
The loan is repaid from the estate. The remaining funds in the estate cannot be paid out until the loan is repaid without prior permission from the HSE and I am presuming you don't have this. it's a liability of the estate, not of you as an executor

What you should have done is that the executor (you) should have sold the land as the executor once probate was granted and not done it piecemeal with the other beneficiaries. . The solicitor would have gathered the funds, the loan paid and the remainder distributed. It's unclear from your post if the other beneficiaries who have sold their share are making any contribution to paying the loan. I believe they should as it is the estate that pays it, not the executor.

Without knowing the value of the estate it's hard to know what is owed to solicitors/EA's etc but a reasonable assumption would be 3% worse case in my view.
 
Towger said:
If the land had to be sold by the Executor to pay the deceased debits then it is was never your land. Then you are paying CAT on an assist you never owned? This is what is confusing people.
ie. It does not matter that Joe gives me a field in his will, if Joe dies and owes money to the tax man or fair deal etc they get their cut first. If the field is all there is to be sold, then I get nothing.
Is there confusion between You the Inheriter and You the Executor? They are two different entities for tax purposes.
Click to expand...
I am both the executor of the will and the inheritor of the land that is sold. I know that the HSE get their cut first. I paid CAT on the land that is now sold as it was willed to me and based on a valuation carried out after my relative passed away. I borrowed money to pay the CAT and an now seeking a refund.
thedaddyman said:
The loan is repaid from the estate. The remaining funds in the estate cannot be paid out until the loan is repaid without prior permission from the HSE and I am presuming you don't have this. it's a liability of the estate, not of you as an executor

What you should have done is that the executor (you) should have sold the land as the executor once probate was granted and not done it piecemeal with the other beneficiaries. . The solicitor would have gathered the funds, the loan paid and the remainder distributed. It's unclear from your post if the other beneficiaries who have sold their share are making any contribution to paying the loan. I believe they should as it is the estate that pays it, not the executor.

Without knowing the value of the estate it's hard to know what is owed to solicitors/EA's etc but a reasonable assumption would be 3% worse case in my view.
Click to expand...
The loan is about to be repaid from the proceeds of the sale of the land that was willed to me. This should happen within the next week or two. I don't wish to go into figures but after the loan is repaid there will still be a substantial amount of money remaining in the account. All other debts have been paid. My accountant dealt with the tax liabilities of the deceased which where nil.
The other beneficiaries have not yet sold their land. They are in the process of doing so. I, as the executor, have to sign off on these sales but the beneficiaries themselves are dealing with the estate agent. The other beneficiaries are making a contribution toward the loan and this contribution will be withheld from the proceeds of their sales. My point is: once all debts have been paid and there is still a substantial amount of funds remaining in the account at this moment why can I not access these funds. After all, all the funds in the account right now have come from my inheritance which included the residue. It may be difficult to understand this process it you are not directly involved. On top of all that the solicitor who was dealing with the will left the practice ( I got four days notice)and I am now dealing with a new solicitor who is not yet fully cognizant with all the details.
I am not seeking to access the funds until the loan is repaid. Also, I have received an estimate of the solicitors fees so I know roughly what they are due. Other beneficiaries will also have to make a contribution to the fees.
 
Baffling said:
I am both the executor of the will and the inheritor of the land that is sold. I know that the HSE get their cut first. I paid CAT on the land that is now sold as it was willed to me and based on a valuation carried out after my relative passed away. I borrowed money to pay the CAT and an now seeking a refund.

The loan is about to be repaid from the proceeds of the sale of the land that was willed to me. This should happen within the next week or two. I don't wish to go into figures but after the loan is repaid there will still be a substantial amount of money remaining in the account. All other debts have been paid. My accountant dealt with the tax liabilities of the deceased which where nil.
The other beneficiaries have not yet sold their land. They are in the process of doing so. I, as the executor, have to sign off on these sales but the beneficiaries themselves are dealing with the estate agent. The other beneficiaries are making a contribution toward the loan and this contribution will be withheld from the proceeds of their sales. My point is: once all debts have been paid and there is still a substantial amount of funds remaining in the account at this moment why can I not access these funds. After all, all the funds in the account right now have come from my inheritance which included the residue. It may be difficult to understand this process it you are not directly involved. On top of all that the solicitor who was dealing with the will left the practice ( I got four days notice)and I am now dealing with a new solicitor who is not yet fully cognizant with all the details.
I am not seeking to access the funds until the loan is repaid. Also, I have received an estimate of the solicitors fees so I know roughly what they are due. Other beneficiaries will also have to make a contribution to the fees.
Click to expand...
I do think you have been badly advised here as you seem to have made a mountain out of something that should have been relatively straightforward.
  • You can't access the funds until the loan is paid, that is a simple fact and you understand that.
  • You can't access the funds until a tax clearance cert is obtained and in my experience, that is the last act that should be done- has you accountant got that from Revenue? If not, the funds can't be paid over.
  • In order for the other beneficiaries to sell the land, probate should have been complete and the assets transferred to their name- has that happened. ? If not, they can't sell the land as they don't own it. You can sell it (as executor), subject to probate, but the sale is not complete until probate is complete and you won't get paid until probate is completed.
  • As executor, have you asked the solicitor to pay your EA and other costs for the sale of the land. If not, and have you paid this yourself, have you informed your solicitor of this?
  • Are there any other debts outstanding- hospital charges, funeral charges etc.
  • Are there any other assets remaining to be gathered, bank accounts etc. Note most solicitors won't handle share sales in my experience (if applicable).
I really don't understand why you are trusting the other beneficiaries to pay you for the loan once they have sold their property. That strikes me as risky. Secondly, have you received tax advice that once they do pay you, you do not have a liability?.
 
Baffling said:
Because its the liability of all the beneficiaries in the will.
Click to expand...
Its not, it's the liability of the estate and the responsibility of the relevant accountable person named on the application when the application was submitted to ensure it is repaid. The relevant accountable person is only liable in the event of fraud or where the relevant accountable person distributes the assets without the permission of the HSE.

Assuming you are the relevant accountable person, it is your responsibility to ensure that the estate, via the executor, (and yes, I know this is yourself also) repays the loan via the estate.

The estate and the beneficiaries are not the same thing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top